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	<title>Comments on: An Enchanted Place, Part 2: In Which We Say Goodbye</title>
	<atom:link href="http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/</link>
	<description>A field headquarters in the War on Schooliness.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: On the Meaningful, in Quantum Contexts &#124; Beyond School</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4941</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Meaningful, in Quantum Contexts &#124; Beyond School</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4941</guid>
		<description>[...] I wrote my quitting school-teaching six months before I did it.  I wrote of launching a global student blog six months before I did that. The writing preceded [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I wrote my quitting school-teaching six months before I did it.  I wrote of launching a global student blog six months before I did that. The writing preceded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alana</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4197</link>
		<dc:creator>Alana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4197</guid>
		<description>Clay - I just signed up to follow both of you on twitter (its always nice to know how people find us isn't it?).  Also, put your blog on Google reader after a search on "transformational education."  I too am moving out of institutionalized education (higher ed in my case) and move to teaching.  Thanks for writing all of who you are!

Alana</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay - I just signed up to follow both of you on twitter (its always nice to know how people find us isn&#8217;t it?).  Also, put your blog on Google reader after a search on &#8220;transformational education.&#8221;  I too am moving out of institutionalized education (higher ed in my case) and move to teaching.  Thanks for writing all of who you are!</p>
<p>Alana</p>
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		<title>By: Carmen</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4191</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4191</guid>
		<description>Dear Clay,
First, I couldn't agree with you more about the shortcomings of our schools, which are the unfortunate byproduct of our societies, none of them willing or able to promote the kind of values one would hope to see radiating out of a solid and well-rounded education. With a teenager in public school, I'm constantly beating my head against the wall of local conformism: most parents, teachers, and administrators are content with a status quo that continues to promote, yes, narcissism, materialism, 'success' measured in terms of the kind of productivity that leads to (earning) power.

When I spoke (parenthetically) of schooling I was referring to something entirely different, not a utopia or ideal like 'beyond school' (which I have no problem with, by the way; you may have noticed that I like to poke in on your blog now and again; you may remember, too, that I completely get the home schooling revolution, my mother took my little brothers out of public school for several years to home school… and that’s a completely different non-success story for another day). Rather I meant the kind of learning required to produce art, or literature, or anything else creative that doesn’t fall into the mainstream mould described above. Mozart had to be trained to play and write music; you hold a graduate degree in the humanities and invested countless hours learning how to compose elegant prose; I was enrolled in a course with a professional who alternated between teaching us technique and letting us fly free.

I hope you didn’t think I was accusing you of narcissism; my analogy between your writing and my drawing could have led to that misunderstanding and, if so, I do apologize. What I was trying to describe was the kind of ping-ponging I go through when I create something: is it satisfactory because of the fleeting epiphany I feel during a free moment, or is it ultimately fluff, to borrow your own self-deprecating term, imperfect, nothing more than a marker on the broader continuum of my overall progress, and if so, doesn’t that mean it’s time (for me anyway) to go back to the proverbial drawing board with the help of a little more technique? ‘Twasn’t a criticism of you at all.

Of true artists (as opposed to the amateur wanna-be’s like me!) and their narcissism, I know very little (well, that’s only partly true). I was only suggesting that one reason I turn to true art time and again (Milne is a great example here) is because it provides a magical release from my own narcissism!

All the best,
C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Clay,<br />
First, I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more about the shortcomings of our schools, which are the unfortunate byproduct of our societies, none of them willing or able to promote the kind of values one would hope to see radiating out of a solid and well-rounded education. With a teenager in public school, I&#8217;m constantly beating my head against the wall of local conformism: most parents, teachers, and administrators are content with a status quo that continues to promote, yes, narcissism, materialism, &#8217;success&#8217; measured in terms of the kind of productivity that leads to (earning) power.</p>
<p>When I spoke (parenthetically) of schooling I was referring to something entirely different, not a utopia or ideal like &#8216;beyond school&#8217; (which I have no problem with, by the way; you may have noticed that I like to poke in on your blog now and again; you may remember, too, that I completely get the home schooling revolution, my mother took my little brothers out of public school for several years to home school… and that’s a completely different non-success story for another day). Rather I meant the kind of learning required to produce art, or literature, or anything else creative that doesn’t fall into the mainstream mould described above. Mozart had to be trained to play and write music; you hold a graduate degree in the humanities and invested countless hours learning how to compose elegant prose; I was enrolled in a course with a professional who alternated between teaching us technique and letting us fly free.</p>
<p>I hope you didn’t think I was accusing you of narcissism; my analogy between your writing and my drawing could have led to that misunderstanding and, if so, I do apologize. What I was trying to describe was the kind of ping-ponging I go through when I create something: is it satisfactory because of the fleeting epiphany I feel during a free moment, or is it ultimately fluff, to borrow your own self-deprecating term, imperfect, nothing more than a marker on the broader continuum of my overall progress, and if so, doesn’t that mean it’s time (for me anyway) to go back to the proverbial drawing board with the help of a little more technique? ‘Twasn’t a criticism of you at all.</p>
<p>Of true artists (as opposed to the amateur wanna-be’s like me!) and their narcissism, I know very little (well, that’s only partly true). I was only suggesting that one reason I turn to true art time and again (Milne is a great example here) is because it provides a magical release from my own narcissism!</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
C</p>
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		<title>By: HaloScan.com - Comments</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4190</link>
		<dc:creator>HaloScan.com - Comments</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4190</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] "I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://beyond-school.org/nfs/c01/h03/mnt/32929/domains/beyond-school.org/html/wp-content/plugins/kramer/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] &#8220;I</p>
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		<title>By: Clay Burell</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4178</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Burell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4178</guid>
		<description>@minh For some odd reason, your verse comment got caught in my spam filter, instead of the beauty filter that should have caught it. It was lovely.

@Jeff, Bill, Hannah, Elizabeth, and everybody else who makes me feel like this needs being said: I'm not going anywhere but beyond school. I'll still be teaching, and reflecting here on how teaching beyond school feels and looks, in my context. So this ain't goodbye.

@Zorro, your comment was right on so many levels. Google brought you here, but I hope you come back and continue commenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@minh For some odd reason, your verse comment got caught in my spam filter, instead of the beauty filter that should have caught it. It was lovely.</p>
<p>@Jeff, Bill, Hannah, Elizabeth, and everybody else who makes me feel like this needs being said: I&#8217;m not going anywhere but beyond school. I&#8217;ll still be teaching, and reflecting here on how teaching beyond school feels and looks, in my context. So this ain&#8217;t goodbye.</p>
<p>@Zorro, your comment was right on so many levels. Google brought you here, but I hope you come back and continue commenting.</p>
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		<title>By: Clay Burell</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4175</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Burell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4175</guid>
		<description>@Carmen, You write: "And yet while a certain power and freedom do seem to come from looking within, I suspect that without some formal training (schooling), such freedom would boil down to a kind of narcissism. So it’s a paradox, isn’t it?"

Most great artists didn't need formal schools in the current sense to escape narcissism. And most formal schools today are so irrelevant in their offerings, I'd counter-paradox by saying formal schooling actually drives the young &lt;i&gt;to&lt;/i&gt; narcissism. 

My notion of education and schooling extend beyond classrooms and teachers, and is thus more in line with big history, not the 2-century blip of prescription-filling that goes on in modern schools.

Anyway, enjoy your drawing and mothering and professoring :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Carmen, You write: &#8220;And yet while a certain power and freedom do seem to come from looking within, I suspect that without some formal training (schooling), such freedom would boil down to a kind of narcissism. So it’s a paradox, isn’t it?&#8221;</p>
<p>Most great artists didn&#8217;t need formal schools in the current sense to escape narcissism. And most formal schools today are so irrelevant in their offerings, I&#8217;d counter-paradox by saying formal schooling actually drives the young <i>to</i> narcissism. </p>
<p>My notion of education and schooling extend beyond classrooms and teachers, and is thus more in line with big history, not the 2-century blip of prescription-filling that goes on in modern schools.</p>
<p>Anyway, enjoy your drawing and mothering and professoring <img src='http://beyond-school.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Carmen</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4174</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4174</guid>
		<description>Dear Clay,
Lovely post, 'fluff' suits you well, frees you to write from the heart, no? I may have mentioned I've reconnected (post-tenure) with figure-drawing? After several months of only intermittent successes with my sketches, I've found I'm at my freest when I turn away from the model and stop trying to reproduce what I see without. I suppose this must be what the professor means by 'finding your core'. And yet while a certain power and freedom do seem to come from looking within, I suspect that without some formal training (schooling), such freedom would boil down to a kind of narcissism. So it’s a paradox, isn’t it? Does anyone really want to return to enchanted places, or just rediscover them through art? (Footnote: See “The Archaic Torso of Apollo” by R.M. Rilke).

Again on the subject of enchanted places, how about having one’s own children? For a very brief while at least (parents out there, would you say the turning point is age 5? right around when we ship 'em off to school?), the depth and sincerity of their cheer is completely infectious. But there again (thinking out loud) isn’t childhood is a mixed bag of euphoria and suffering? Birth would seem to be a fall from grace; is the womb a garden of Eden?

All best wishes, C 
P.S. Please keep in touch, and good luck with your future adventures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Clay,<br />
Lovely post, &#8216;fluff&#8217; suits you well, frees you to write from the heart, no? I may have mentioned I&#8217;ve reconnected (post-tenure) with figure-drawing? After several months of only intermittent successes with my sketches, I&#8217;ve found I&#8217;m at my freest when I turn away from the model and stop trying to reproduce what I see without. I suppose this must be what the professor means by &#8216;finding your core&#8217;. And yet while a certain power and freedom do seem to come from looking within, I suspect that without some formal training (schooling), such freedom would boil down to a kind of narcissism. So it’s a paradox, isn’t it? Does anyone really want to return to enchanted places, or just rediscover them through art? (Footnote: See “The Archaic Torso of Apollo” by R.M. Rilke).</p>
<p>Again on the subject of enchanted places, how about having one’s own children? For a very brief while at least (parents out there, would you say the turning point is age 5? right around when we ship &#8216;em off to school?), the depth and sincerity of their cheer is completely infectious. But there again (thinking out loud) isn’t childhood is a mixed bag of euphoria and suffering? Birth would seem to be a fall from grace; is the womb a garden of Eden?</p>
<p>All best wishes, C<br />
P.S. Please keep in touch, and good luck with your future adventures.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Wasserman</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4151</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Wasserman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4151</guid>
		<description>Clay,

Great post, as always. I can't tell you how many times I've almost done the same thing you're about to do, but haven't been brave or sure enough of myself to do so.  I wish you all the best, as well as a hearty mazel tov on your decision.

Jeff Wassermans last blog post..&lt;a href="http://jwasserman.edublogs.org/2008/06/02/edupunk/" rel="nofollow"&gt;edupunk?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay,</p>
<p>Great post, as always. I can&#8217;t tell you how many times I&#8217;ve almost done the same thing you&#8217;re about to do, but haven&#8217;t been brave or sure enough of myself to do so.  I wish you all the best, as well as a hearty mazel tov on your decision.</p>
<p>Jeff Wassermans last blog post..<a href="http://jwasserman.edublogs.org/2008/06/02/edupunk/" rel="nofollow">edupunk?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Aardent Lore &#187; lerking 'round the big boys blogs</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4145</link>
		<dc:creator>Aardent Lore &#187; lerking 'round the big boys blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4145</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] are my favorite reads. They are were I am. In the classroom. Or, at least they were until here and here. Downs is the hardest to digest. He&#8217;s overwhelming and often way over my head. But [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://beyond-school.org/nfs/c01/h03/mnt/32929/domains/beyond-school.org/html/wp-content/plugins/kramer/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] are my favorite reads. They are were I am. In the classroom. Or, at least they were until here and here. Downs is the hardest to digest. He&#8217;s overwhelming and often way over my head. But [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Farren</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/06/09/we-say-goodbye/#comment-4142</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Farren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=713#comment-4142</guid>
		<description>Clay: Great post. I'd like to echo Bill Ferriter's words in the second comment. (Bill, thanks for saying that so well.)
 
I've learned a lot from your writing and I'm sure others have too.
I've also learned a lot from the community that surrounds your blog. 
Even though in the future, some kids may not have the privilege to join you in a classroom, I'm sure meaningful, engaging, joyful, learning will continue to benefit those in contact with you.

All the best,
Bill

Bill Farrens last blog post..&lt;a href="http://www.ed4wb.org/?p=89" rel="nofollow"&gt;Information Deformation - Video&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay: Great post. I&#8217;d like to echo Bill Ferriter&#8217;s words in the second comment. (Bill, thanks for saying that so well.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve learned a lot from your writing and I&#8217;m sure others have too.<br />
I&#8217;ve also learned a lot from the community that surrounds your blog.<br />
Even though in the future, some kids may not have the privilege to join you in a classroom, I&#8217;m sure meaningful, engaging, joyful, learning will continue to benefit those in contact with you.</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
Bill</p>
<p>Bill Farrens last blog post..<a href="http://www.ed4wb.org/?p=89" rel="nofollow">Information Deformation - Video</a></p>
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