Muhammad Ali: A D- Student? Or an F- School?
[Update 2: Goodness! A 75-comment debate exploded in less than a day. Best sustained conversation among all commenters (not just responding to the post) that I've ever seen on this blog. A true "cocktail party" about an important subject: Assessing with a bias toward writing, versus assessing to reward non-written communication skills equally in grades.] [Update: Good comments in this one. Thanks to Adrienne Michetti (whose new team-blog looks promising), Claire Thompson, Sylvia Martinez of Generation Yes, and Arthus for rooting this post in the basics - which still aren't basic for so many. And do yourself a favor: watch the Ali video embedded below. It's the evidence of the argument, and a breath of fun to boot.]
I went into a restaurant downtown - you couldn’t do that back then, because things weren’t integrated yet - and I sat down with my [Olympic] gold medal around my neck, and the waitress came up, and I said, ‘Yes, I’d like, uh, a cup of coffee, and a hot dog.’ And she said, ‘I’m sorry, we don’t serve negroes here.’ And I got so angry, I said, ‘And I don’t eat them, either. Now bring me a hot dog!’ — Muhammad Ali, 1971 TV interview (YouTube embedded below)
You never could have made me believe years ago, when I got out of high school with a D- average - and they gave me the minus because I won the Olympics, 1960, I graduated in 1960 and I won the Olympics in 1960 - . . . . and if you would have told me that I would be offered a professorship to teach philosophy and poetry at Oxford, and speak at Harvard, I never would have believed it. — Muhammad Ali, Harvard graduation speech 1975 (YouTube here)
In 1964, [Muhammad] Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub par. — Wikipedia
An Historical Argument Against Writing-Privileged Assessment
It’s been a sleep-in Saturday after a long week. I woke up and took a rare cruise through YouTube. It started with laughs with Ali G, and ended with inspiration from Muhammad Ali.
This post is for any student who, like Ali in the epigraph above, has a low GPA (and thus a low self-image), but a brilliant mind. It’s also for teachers of those students who wish they could do their part to make that GPA more accurately reflect that student’s abilities.
Listen, in this YouTube interview from 1971, to this “sub-par” English student’s brilliance with language*, and laugh at the limitations of assessing writing and spelling to measure verbal intelligence:
And teachers - English teachers, especially, but any teacher using writing to assess understanding and merit in your classrooms - ask yourself, in this age of user-created video and audio, if it makes any sense to keep giving the Muhammed Ali’s of our classrooms a D- because they can’t write well, when they can speak well enough to be honored, like Ali was, at Harvard and Oxford. The English teacher in me is uncomfortable with this question, but the history teacher in me thinks it’s justified: Writing is no longer supreme since the Digital Revolution. It’s now on equal footing with Speaking and Graphic Communication. Isn’t it?
If yes, then why, in most classrooms I’ve seen (and taught), is writing still weighted as around 75% of the final grade in the Language Arts classroom? And how can so many teachers who themselves are capable thinkers and creators, but horrible writers, justify this sort of assessment policy in their own practice?
Ali’s language could “float like a butterfly and sting like a bee,” and with it this man “shook the world” - but neither his high school nor the Army could reflect this in their assessments. Instead, they labeled him “below average” and “sub par.”
It’s been more than 50 years since Ali left high school. Can we leave that assessment philosophy now? (I hear the answers already: “Not until the SAT allows oral instead of written essays.” Just kill me.)
Story Time: When I Met Ali First, and Second
I met Ali in 1982 or so in a West Hollywood restaurant on Sunset Boulevard*, serving him as his white-boy waiter. I was about 20. I told him my name was Clay, and that when I was in first grade in the ’60s and he was still known as Cassius Clay, people called me “Cassius.”
When he heard that, this gentle giant smiled, put up his lethal dukes, dodged and weaved for a split second while he said,
“Oh. So you a fighter.”
Then he offered a handshake, and my hand disappeared into it.
I was an English major in college then, but I didn’t take mental marks off of Ali’s performance for omitting the “are,” didn’t say, “You mean, ‘You are a fighter.’” And this wasn’t just because he could have lifted me over his head and snapped me in two. It was because his language, bad grammar and all, was far more electrifying than many a grammatically perfect professor I had at the time.
I was unschooled in Ali’s history at that time. All I knew was that he was a heavyweight world champion of my childhood, and now had some sort of neural disorder (he often fell asleep at his table, and his wife would wake him up). I wish I’d known then what I know now - that he was one of the great men of the 20th century - so that I could have told him that. Instead, I just laughed with the stupid giddiness people often have in the face of celebrities, and served him his pasta.
Only years later, after watching Leon Gast’s riveting documentary, When We were Kings, did I realize just how great Ali was - not only as a boxer, but also as a citizen and man of conscience for a nation adrift. Punished with the loss of his boxing license at the prime of his career for his political dissent and his refusal to fight in Vietnam, he became an American pariah.
Fifteen years after meeting him, I had another Ali moment. Having lost all desire to become an academic, but not having lost the lifetime of college debt I’d accumulated in that (for me) fool’s quest, I was in a personnel processing center at Fort Leonard Wood, Arkansas, with a freshly shaved head and a duffel bag, ready to start Basic Training. There was a wall-mounted TV in the corner of the room, with live coverage of some important-looking outdoor ceremony. I was out of all media loops that summer, and didn’t even know the Olympics were going on. It was the Torch-lighting ceremony on that TV that I was watching - and it was history. Ali lit that torch in his final, moral comeback. The audience and media adulation was for once justified. It brought tears to my eyes and gave me faith in America.
–
*The critical thinking about race in religion and in US history are not too shabby either. And yes, while Ali shows a lack of critical thinking in his wholesale swallowing of everything Elijah Muhammad preached to him, we shouldn’t be too hard on him. Lack of critical thinking about one’s own religion is the norm in most people of any religion, from what I can see. As I read somewhere - maybe Sam Harris, maybe Bertrand Russell - everybody’s an atheist when it comes to others’ religions. Full non-theists just take them one further.
**Los Angelenos, is “The Old World” restaurant still there? On the corner diagonal from Tower Records, across the street from Spago?
While I absolutely agree with you that we need to have multiple (equal?) methods and mediums of assessment, I don’t think it should be done by simply replacing some writing assessments with (for example) graphical assessments—that does a disservice to those of us who excel at written assessment.
For instance, my current language arts teacher is a great fan of painting: so almost all of our exams involve painting. Sure, I agree that it is important to give gifted painters the opportunity to share their talent. Yet, shouldn’t we also have the opportunity to paint a picture with our words if that is our preferred medium?
In an ideal classroom, students would be able to chose the medium of assessment. For instance, one of our exams was to paint a picture of summer. Instead, the assignment should simply be to create something about summer. If you are a graphical artist, paint. If you would rather write, a poem. Give a speech if you want! Hell, do interpretive dance if that tickles your fancy.
This is obviously not a new idea, but I still think it is important.
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Arthus Erea
27 Apr 08 at 3:21 am
I’m with you on that, Arthus. In most cases I’ve seen, though, the students who can’t write well but can think and communicate well are the ones who get the short end of the assessment stick.
The problem with all of this is that teachers are hemmed in, in many cases, by external factors when they create their assessments.
Clay Burell
27 Apr 08 at 3:29 am
From LA: Neither Spago, Tower Records, or Old World are there on Sunset anymore. If you want to, you can drive down Sunset Blvd (8800 block) with the streetview on Google maps. Funky Hollywood moved east, fancy Hollywood moved west, so this area is pretty boring these days.
sylvia martinez
27 Apr 08 at 3:34 am
I agree, they generally do. Just pointing out that we can’t just flip the assessment stick over, since that’ll just give the writing students the short end.
Unfortunately teachers don’t have much room to change assessment strategies, particularly in regards to the “big” assessments/exams. Luckily, I’m starting to see some reform here in the US with teachers being able to diversify assessment strategies. But it’ll be a while before we see any real change.
Arthus Erea
27 Apr 08 at 3:34 am
cuz in teh end dis is wat imployers hate 2 see.
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Benjamin Baxter
27 Apr 08 at 11:59 am
When I first started teaching, I knew a few ‘renegade’ teachers who refused to teach to the test, in this case the grade 12 provincial exams. The exams count for 40% of the student’s mark. As a new teacher, teaching a provincially examinable course I thought they were crazy! How could you not spend huge chunks of time exposing your students to oodles of multiple choice, short answer, and essay questions, just like the ones the students would see on their tests?! But over time I certainly couldn’t dismiss their results–students who were critical thinkers, had a love of their subject, and , by the way, who did well on the big tests.
Is there research out there comparing test results from the ‘big’ tests (SATs, provincials, etc) with the methods employed by the teachers (teaching to the test, vs teaching for understanding and for critical thinking)? Just curious.
Claire
27 Apr 08 at 1:20 pm
HAHA! That’s gotta be one of the best lines ever: And she said, ‘I’m sorry, we don’t serve negroes here.’ And I got so angry, I said, ‘And I don’t eat them, either. Now bring me a hot dog!’
Thanks for that. I’ll keep it in my hat
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Mr. Music
27 Apr 08 at 2:53 pm
Ah, assessment. One of my favorite topics. I really, seriously must question ANY English / Language Arts classroom where there is a primary focus on writing — and I say that *even* knowing all I do about AP, IB, and all the rest. Any teacher who has been “in the know” for the last 15-20 years MUST know about Multiple Intelligences, Learning Styles, DeBono’s Hats, blah-dee-blah-dee-blah. Right?
I fully agree with Arthus when he says, “In an ideal classroom, students would be able to chose the medium of assessment.” I try to do this as often as possible. Sure, there are times when it’s impractical or difficult to do, and yes, this is true more the higher the grade level you teach. But *even* in restrictive programs like the IB Diploma, or Canadian provincial exams (what I think Claire was talking about) there is always space for a teacher to be creative in designing assessments. I would even argue that is part of your job, to differentiate in this respect.
Yes, writing is important. But it is not the be-all-end-all. And, what about different TYPES of writing? One of my writing coaches in my university ed program* pointed out to us that most HS students are asked to write using Standard Academic Discourse, otherwise known as S.A.D. (nice ironic acronym, huh?) And he pointed out that S.A.D. is a language that we all understand but that no one actually uses to communicate daily. So why is it pushed as “necessity” in HS English classrooms?
While I agree with Benjamin Baxter that employers want to see good written communication, I believe it is not the only communication skill needed to succeed. Speaking and Graphic Communication are *very* important in the 21st century. Has anyone noticed the increase in popularity of graphic novels and manga in the last 10 years? My students were thrilled that on my last trip to a “real” bookstore, I discovered and purchased 3 Manga versions of Shakespeare plays. They all use the original text — pretty dang cool if you ask me. The graphics *aid* the written communication. Surely we can expect the same of our students.
Isn’t every Language Arts classroom meant to weigh all 5 (or 6) of the strands equally? Those strands being Writing, Reading, Speaking, Listening, Viewing — and in some places Representing is added to that list.
*I convocated more than 10 years ago, so this line of thought is not “new”, though education seems to change at a painfully sloooow pace.
Adrienne
27 Apr 08 at 6:27 pm
I think that when you argue about student assessment based on writing, you need to be careful about both the age and situation of the students you are discussing. For a student teacher for instance, an inability to craft a comprehensible and reasonably well framed page of text is a serious problem. There are any number of other careers in which writing skills are vital. I would argue that writing as an assessment tool is valid, but should be paired with other systems of evaluation. It also means that students with different facilities…so that the gifted speaker, the student who is active and engaged and demonstrating understanding in class and the clear writer all have a chance of being assessed for their real abilities.
In some fields, and some classes however, writing skills are simply necessary.
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oreneta
27 Apr 08 at 10:52 pm
Thanks, all, for some interesting comments.
Benjamin, it’s sometimes hard to tell how seriously you mean your comments to be taken, but I’ll bite:
1) spell-check reduces the seriousness of bad spelling today (unless your over-the-top caricature of bad spelling includes an over-the-top scenario that the hypothetical workplace is one in which employees hand-write their texts);
2) employers today understand collaboration. Even heads of state collaborate on their speeches by *having other writers write them*. If Ali’s report card said, “Poor spelling, poor writing, spell-binding speaking” (or at least, respectively, “D-, D-, A+), employers looking for presenters and speakers would be able to spot this future commencement speaker at Harvard and honorary professor of philosophy and poetry at Oxford, and give him an interview. Instead, they hire good writers who probably aren’t stellar speakers - this English teacher sees it all the time in his students.
3) it’s easy enough to teach the difference between writing and chat by grade 7. My point was to reward all language arts at least more equally, if not completely so.
@ADRIENNE I love that: S.A.D. - it’s exactly what drove me from becoming a lit professor. I aced all my lit classes from freshman to graduate school, but the longer I played the game, the less enchanted I was with the idea of a life of writing S.A.D. The irony is crushing: to be a doctor of literature, you have to devote your life to writing the opposite, and watch your writing perish through (academic) publishing. As you say, it’s the least real-world of all writing modes.
@Oreneta: I agree with you. Again, I never suggested to do away with writing instruction. My main thrust was to do away with labeling students failures by virtue of their weakness in this one ’strand,’ as Adrienne put it, of Language Arts (and communication across the curriculum, more broadly).
I’ll repeat, though, what I see in teacher emails daily: often “sub-par” writing. Yet they still get in. Why are they failing students who share their weakness, instead of helping them find paths to success through alternative assessment?
Thanks again, all.
Clay Burell
27 Apr 08 at 11:11 pm
Forgot to note MR. MUSIC caught my touchdown pass with that opening epigraph: Ali’s pun on “serving negroes” shows such an instinctive grasp of language, from grammar to idiom to diction, and it was all impromptu speaking on his part in that interview.
If you watch the YouTube embedded, he employs so many stylistic, figurative, and rhetorical techniques naturally that most of my A students haven’t learned to use in their own writing after 12 years of English classes.
Yet Ali is a D- student.
Lest you’re tempted to argue Ali was much older in this video than he was when he made bad grades in HS, you can find films of interviews with him when he won the olympics the year of his HS graduation. He had the Gift even then.
It’s like teachers can be blind and deaf to the student, and only able to see the student’s written homework.
Clay Burell
27 Apr 08 at 11:22 pm
Mr. Music: By the way, I followed you comment to your site. Nice! It would actually make a good model for students who want to blog about music. Good stuff.
Clay Burell
27 Apr 08 at 11:31 pm
I don’t know that any thinking person would want to NOT teach writing, that’s just setting up a straw man argument that’s easy to knock down.
I do know that most writing required by current jobs is not taught in schools. There is not one person making their living writing five paragraph essays. In fact, essays in general are the most often taught and the least useful in the real world. Most writing is factual, technical or sales-oriented. The hardest writing is short and edited well.
Critical, thoughtful editing is a crucial part of learning to write, and that’s overlooked as well.
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sylvia martinez
28 Apr 08 at 1:16 am
I teach seniors in a history-English block. These seniors can’t write worth beans. It will come back to haunt them.
I have no problem with graphic communication, or teaching students the elements of design. That’s just not something that should be a focus of an English class. English means literary analysis, written communication and oral communication. For the students I see every day, they still need practice and they still need to be drilled on writing better.
Spell check won’t catch “u” or “2,” and employers really do complain about it. Spelling and grammar errors are, according to one Google-handy blog, the No. 1 thing employers hate to see in resumes. I’d suppose they’d continue to hate it throughout the employee’s career.
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Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 5:59 am
Benjamin, I beg to differ.
First of all, spell check most certainly will catch “u” - most decent word processors will actually convert “u” to “you” automatically.
Secondly, the difference between “language arts” and “english” is paramount in my opinion: English deals with the language of English. Language arts deal with the art of language. Language Arts can deal with multiple languages. Graphics are a language. Symbols are a language. There’s no reason they shouldn’t be stressed just as much written English.
Hell, plenty of employers would be mighty impressed by a video resume. Or a stellar interview. Or a stellar design portfolio. In the future, creative economy, it’s not what you’ve got written that matters it’s what you’re ready to create.
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Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 6:23 am
Benjamin - again, nobody is saying “Don’t teach writing.”
And I don’t think “design” popped up in this thread with the same sort of emphasis as “speaking” (”oral communication,” as you put it).
I’ll make the point again: Ali apparently couldn’t “write worth beans” either. But he could speak better than most. His poor writing - despite the best efforts of his writing-biased teachers - didn’t “come back to haunt” him. His Gift for speaking saved him.
I’m not sure you’re hearing what I’m saying (or others in this thread). It’s not an either/or, it’s a question of emphasis.
And the “what employers want” argument? It’s troubling on a few levels. Which employers, first. Second, while employment is of course important, does telling students, via grades, that they’re “sub-par” because they’re not strong in writing - when, to repeat, they are strong communicators in other ways - does this help them get a job? Or does it make them think they stink at language (and language arts) because they can’t write S.A.D. (academic English), and turn them off of literature, literacy, and belief in their own abilities?
Listening to Ali in that interview, don’t you agree it’s absurd to call him a “failure” or “sub-par” because he doesn’t do a good literary analysis?
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 6:25 am
Math is a language, too, as is music. But they have their own courses. Let graphics communication have its own course, too.
To place the emphasis on something new, something that has never been taught, will crowd out other, important parts of the curriculum. That’s what makes my argument look like an either/or.
The ability to think — for which literary analysis is a good exercise and relying on the spellchecker isn’t — would have certainly helped Ali analyze Elijah Muhammad’s sermons a little better, rather than accept them tacitly, and without argument.
My counterproposal: Teach students how to think. That’s one skill that will never go out of style. After all, if writing is really going out of style, who says that graphic design won’t, either?
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Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 7:33 am
Ben,
I covered Ali’s critical thinking in the footnote, Ben. I thought it was quite good in terms of race, sociology, history, and (non-Islamic) lay theology. He just fell down when it comes to his own religion. But again, see footnote.
I’ll repeat the questions I wish you’d address:
And let me beat you to this punch: Yes, Ali depended on his boxing to save him too. But his speech is what made him an historical cultural icon - and his strategically brilliant use of it. The man was a marketing genius, and explicitly discusses how he knew what he was doing when he performed “slam poetry” for the cameras. And he knew what he was doing when he addressed race in America, and Vietnam.
Elijah Muhammad, by the way, was no fool. Much of what Ali parrots is not easy to dismiss. (Yes, sure, some is.)
But can you address the “fail ‘em if they can’t analyze and academicize” argument in blockquotes above?
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 7:46 am
Okay, let’s give graphic communication its own course. (Some might call it art)
I’m 99% positive it won’t be a required course. In most schools, “art” isn’t. Yet, math and English are.
Oh, give me a break. If you think that writing a “literary analysis” (at least the type in 99% of English classes) is the best way to teach thinking, you’ll need some analysis (and not of the literary type). From my experience, most literary analysis involves writing a S.A.D. essay about a specific trait of a character, which could be said in a single sentence. There’s more than one way to think.
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Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 7:48 am
Clay,
I like Arthus’ distinction between “English” and “Language Arts”. Each is important.
When I first entered teaching (as a second career) the Whole Language movement was in full swing. Lower elementary classes stressed creative expression and shunned phonics in favor of reading children’s literature and emphasizing a free flow of writing without slowing students down to edit spelling and grammar. As a result, many of the students never learned “proper” English and in middle school were resistant to proofing their work.
I believe that English classes should introduce and reinforce “proper” grammar and usage while Creative Expression classes might investigate all the other venues for original thinking, including art, dance, poetry, cartooning, game design, computer programming - whatever speaks to the skill of the individual.
Spell check won’t tell you if you’ve used “duel” when “dual” is what you really meant, or distinguish between “there” “they’re” and “their” when all are properly spelled.
And, believe it or not, there are still instances when electronic tools are unavailable and a handwritten response might be in order.
diane
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diane
28 Apr 08 at 8:04 am
Hi Clay and everyone
I have really enjoyed reading your post and the responses but I have to say whilst I fully understand what you are saying and agree to some degree, I have wear an ‘industry’ hat. My profession is midwifery (and my issues will be equally as relevant in nursing, medicine and so on) and I teach students as well as practice as a midwife. We have just had to bring in numeracy and literacy testing, even though students enter our program with education levels of NCEA Level 3 (NZ) (’A’ level in UK). And I know this is a global trend. Students are not writing at a level that is required at a professional level. Critical thinking is vital but being able to document is equally as important.
I was told only a couple of days ago about a friend who is trying to become a corrections (prison) officer. We are crying out for POs in NZ so there’s a big recruitment drive. He’s got life experience, the physical attributes and attitude, but he failed the report writing test.
So please don’t give up teaching and assessing writing skills.
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Sarah Stewart
28 Apr 08 at 8:06 am
Sarah, nobody is saying “give up teaching and assessing writing” here.
Diane, does an English class really need to be so about conventions, grammar, and SAD that non-academic writing has to be relegated to a “creativity” class? And shouldn’t a retreat from the Whole Language excess in early years remedy the problem before secondary?
I had basic grammar, spelling, and conventions down before I ever hit high school.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 8:11 am
I agree with Sylvia’s comment about the types of writing that are often taught, which aren’t often all that reflective of “real world” writing.
Most writing done in schools (other than creative writing) is academic in nature–and so while it hones writing skills perhaps, it doesn’t really address other kinds of work-related writing.
I would also posit, as a former English teacher myself, that English teachers don’t get much training in teaching the “communication” portion of language arts. (at least not when I was trained).
So it’s clear why that would get short shrift–it’s not getting that much focus at the college level either (or again, it didn’t used to) so teachers don’t see that as part of their English language arts job (not to mention “visual communication”).
Part of having more student-led activities, assignments, and projects is that the communication in them becomes more “real world” and prepares them for a more natural, less stilted attempt at communicating. The best learning situations are where all these elements come together for students.
Carolyn Foote
28 Apr 08 at 8:14 am
diane,
While admittedly computers do have their flaws, they continue to improve. Honestly, by the time todays high school freshmen are out in the workforce I fully expect computers to be able to correct “dual” vs. “duel” accurately by analyzing lexical context and the rest of the document for similar words.
Additionally, most people can tell the difference between two words when the two spellings are given. As for the technology not always there for you argument, it really is getting flimsier and flimsier. Seriously, I have a piece of technology capable of typing on me at all times.
Honestly, basic grammar skills are easily learned. The nuances aren’t. But, I think English teachers tend to glorify the usefulness of perfect grammar. Sure, you shouldn’t have any mistakes in a job application: but most people are intelligent enough to diligently check every sentence of their applications. For the rest (mostly emails/IM), you just need to communicate your point: nothing fancier.
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Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 8:18 am
Teaching such that you teach S.A.D. is the wrong way to teach literary analysis, or conduct research.
I’m all for teaching non-S.A.D. writing in English classes, as long as writing is still the emphasis. Maybe you have a different perspective from being in a different school or kind of school, but where I teach writing is still a major weakness of my students.
Inflating their ego about their own abilities won’t help them. Encouraging them to succeed in areas that they’re already good at won’t help the grow as genuinely interested learners.
Look at it this way: the only decent judge on American Idol is Simon. He doesn’t waste time with boosting egos needlessly, convincing people they have talent in areas that they don’t. Students need to have a realistic assessment of their strengths and weaknesses, and simultaneously be encouraged to continue working at it.
It isn’t an either/or, after all.
Moreover, I make a distinction between literary analysis and S.A.D. as commentors here know it. I hate S.A.D. just as much as the next guy — it’s simply the wrong way to teach literary analysis. I believe that there is a way to teach real literary analysis that isn’t S.A.D., and that it requires provocative, interesting prompts. It’s possible, if you use texts that are already both, or near enough.
For examples, I’ve used one of Jeremiah Wright’s sermons in my history class, and I have great analysis coming out of some students, even though they have a pretty poor grasp of grammar and spelling.
Of tangential note: Their arguments will, whatever the content, look foolish if the arguments lack decent grammar or spelling. That’s a whole other issue. This is the way to teach how to think.
Back to the idea of provocative and interesting: Why should we encourage students to do only work or assignments that interest them, and not teach that sometimes learning is work? Hard work, without immediate and tangible rewards.
Careful: S.A.D. is bad, and not because students hate it. Students hating it should not be a criterion.
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Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 8:18 am
Clay,
My husband, my two children, and myself all have a good basic knowledge of grammar, etc. But we all attended parochial schools for early grades and standardized testing didn’t rule the school calendar then, as it does now.
Teaching to the test takes up a huge portion of the school day. Ideally, the creative expression component would be embedded across the curriculum. However, many teachers don’t want to give up their pet projects (Create a pamphlet on a state. Include the state bird, tree, capital city, main products…) and are unwilling to invest the time and effort necessary for alternative assessment.
Our whole (US) educational system needs an update/overhaul. Both teachers and students are stressed and learning is not occurring with any consistency.
diane
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diane
28 Apr 08 at 8:22 am
Why rely on computers? Why? How is this a good idea?
In the real world, if you’re trying to proofread an essay, two spellings are not given.
Also, look at it this way: How to kids learn to differentiate between the two at all, especially the English Learners? The teacher teaches them. That’s how this works.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 8:26 am
(Could the powers that be fix my blockquotes, please? Thanks.)
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 8:30 am
Sarah,
You make a crucial mistake by taking assessment and application as being mutually dependent. If students fail the assessment, but are fine with day-to-day literacy, then what is the problem?
You complain of students not coming in with the proper writing abilities, but this is measured through “numeracy and literacy testing” - not actual day-to-day ability.
I too work in an industry (web development), albeit not full time. I get jobs from my portfolio, which has minimal text to it. Most of my communication with clients is via email (where spelling/grammar isn’t paramount), IM conversations, and Skype calls. S.A.D. helps not one bit. Sure, this isn’t the norm for most jobs today (particularly your standard HS graduate), but the trend is heading towards more informal, global workspaces.
—-
Benjamin,
If you don’t care about S.A.D but rather care about literary analysis, why not give students the opportunity to analyze in the medium of their choice. Why not let them create oratory analysis, or visual analysis?
It is a good idea because: a) computers are efficient and do not waste paper or ink and b) if you know how to use them, they don’t crash. Hell, a machine is more dependable than a person any day of the week.
You’re kidding me, right? Two spellings sure as hell are given. I type my essay. I proofread by reading it. If there are spelling errors, I can see them. I right click, there are two spellings. Something tells me you’re the type who prints out stuff to read it…
*ahem* By reading. Seriously…
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 8:31 am
Arthus,
Maybe that flies in your Vermont school, but in NYS there are penalties for schools that exceed set drop-out rates…and students who don’t finish high school in four years are considered drop-outs, with only a few exceptions.
Our students don’t have high speed computer access at home and those who have phones use them mainly for talking, not composing essays or spell checking.
There is no digital equity. Your world is not their world.
diane
dianes last blog post..Fly on Your Heavy Feet
diane
28 Apr 08 at 8:37 am
… and somehow that’s an insult? Computer screens are not the ideal medium for proofreading — any copy editor would tell you that.
Something tells me that you haven’t tried to proofread large amounts of text on a computer screen. Computers are not the end-all and be-all, and should never be.
Computers are only as useful, efficient or dependable as the person using them. Moreover, we don’t have many working computers at our school, nor can we rely on students to provide their own. What they know of technology is what they’ve picked up by themselves.
I can’t guarantee that students know that the red squiggly line means they have a spelling error, or that a long green squiggly line means that their sentence is missing a verb.
… and how do they learn how to read, in a world filled with parents with no knowledge of English, where the full responsibility for language acquisition tends to fall to a student’s social life and schooling?
Here’s a hint: Students dislike dictionaries, and can’t afford computers.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 8:41 am
Arthus, I wish you hadn’t stopped teaching with me
Ben, you’re avoiding my thrust with a red herring. I didn’t say “boost their egos.” If their writing needs work, work it. But if their speaking is their strength, don’t negate that by a) not assessing it equally to their writing, and b) not “boosting their egos” validly by encouraging them to continue in their area of strength.
It’s like the great math student who, because s/he is not so great in English, is made to sacrifice after-school time working on English that s/he could instead be spending advancing her math - her strength - even more.
Great speakers shouldn’t get a D in Language Arts because they’re not great writers. Writing should be assessed and taught, but why not as a less-weighted homework category, for example, instead of a major test bias? (Most major assessments in most English classes I’ve seen have privileged writing over other communication acts.)
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 8:41 am
On justifying an emphasis on writing:
Writing is what exists online, in its most reliable form. We’re not talking to each other, we’re not creating visual representations of our arguments. We’re writing. By far, the form of communication that dominates online discourse is through words.
Students need to recognize, and then work on, their weaknesses. To do otherwise is, to my mind, an exercise in ego inflation.
“Don’t worry about your weakness in writing, or math. It doesn’t matter, in the end. As long as you have one marketable skill, settle for it.”
I believe that students need to be well-rounded. If they’re struggling in one subject, they should have extra school time to grapple with it, rather than just take another route — oratory, graphical-visual presentations — throughout the rest of their school career, and their life.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 8:53 am
diane,
Maybe what flies? I don’t think any students should be dropping out of school (well, unless the school really is that bad). Please point out to me where I advocated for students to drop out of school. In fact, if there were more differentiated communication mediums I imagine we’d see drop-out rates drop like a stone.
Does the school have computer access? Do students have computer access at home at all? (No need for it to be high-speed) You can word process on Windows 95 just fine.
Still, you make a valid point about digital equity. I really think the government should be doing more to roll out internet and computer access to all students (instead of waging wars), but that’s a whole different cup of tea.
—
Benjamin,
It is in my world. To start with… that is a huge waste of paper. Sure, maybe an “copy editor” who has been working in the field since before computers will tell me that, but that’s mostly because they’re never bothered to adjust their methods. Also, talk to many editors at major newspapers: most of them don’t have the time to communicate changes via paper.
So the written word should be the end-all and be-all. Actually, I have edited significant amounts of text on computer screens (every assignment I have ever turned in). Additionally, I have edited almost every article posted on Students 2.0 (using Google Docs). We can communicate changes instantly, talking about sentences that need revising and conference.
That would be where the straw house of your argument falls down… if anything, computers amplify people. How is a person writing by hand any more “useful, efficient or dependable” than the person writing. Of course any tool depends upon a good user, but a good user can do a lot more with a computer than with a pen.
The fact that you don’t have many working computers is a problem which should be fixed. As I said to Diane, the government should be doing more to provide every student with a working computer.
Oh, please. How long does it take to say that in class? I reckon maybe 20 seconds.
Nobody said we should stop teaching reading. Most (useful) content in the world is written, so reading is a useful and needed skill. Writing is output, and you can chose your output. Think of this: how many successful graphic designers are there vs. successful writers?
—
Clay, I couldn’t agree more. If a student is bad at writing, say it. Seriously, don’t lie and inflate egos, etc. But, crucially, give them the option of working with a different medium.
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 8:59 am
Ben - more: I teach mostly non-native English speakers in Korea (and in Shanghai before that). I’m married to a non-native English speaker whose accent and grammar are non-standard. But:
She communicates more than fine. I love her English all the more for that.
English as a world language should not insist on native English proficiency. Any United Nations session demonstrates as much.
I first noticed then when watching Yasser Arafat on CNN years ago. His speaking shook the world, but was by no means grammatically correct. Communicatively, though, it more than did its job.
I also studied Arabic at the Monterey Defense Language Institute, and learned an interesting linguistic fact there. Linguists divide languages (at least there) into five levels of difficulty, “5″ being the highest. The only Level 5 language? English. From its spelling (as GB Shaw pointed out, only in English can “ghoti” spell “fish” - lauGH wOmen naTIon) to its ridiculous verb system, it’s a losers game to try to master as a non-native. Only a few who enter the language after age 10 or so ever will.
Grammatically correct is the wrong focus. Clear and effective communication, grammar aside (and again, now I’m speaking mostly about non-native English learners), is more realistic, humane, and interesting.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 9:01 am
Then Ben, you should be an expert mathematician, chemist, and musician?
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 9:02 am
Hi Clay
I remember watching him on TV as a little girl and thinking what an awe inspiring person he was. I used to love the way he bantered with the journalists and the crowds of onlookers. I was about 5 or 6 at the time and yet even then he struck a chord with me. Once I got over my thoughts about how cool it was that you actually got to meet Ali I decided that I would just have to add my thoughts to this discussion.
If I understand things correctly I think what you are trying to say is that we shouldn’t label our students as failures purely because they lack ability/skill in a particular curriculum area/facet of a particular curriculum area. The message that I am getting is that we should place weighting on each facet rather than all or most weighting on one e.g. rather than assigning a grade for English, assign grades for oral language, written language, visual language, etc. Am I correct in this thinking or am I off beam?
I am a teacher…I am also a wife and mother and thought I might share my thoughts from the perspective of the latter two (remembering that I am a teacher).
As a mother, I have watched my bright, creative, intelligent and very articulate little boy have his thoughts and ideas ignored or undervalued because he has difficulty spelling and punctuating. Yet if you take the time to listen to what he has to say or read the content of his written contributions his ideas are amazing. Now as a teacher I fully realise that “it’s good manners for your reader” to punctuate and spell appropriately. I also realise that the lack of these things will often prevent a potential reader from bothering to engage with your writing.
The down side is that worrying about mechanics can also “paralyse” a writer to the point where they are so worried about the mechanics that they are reluctant to write or their message becomes stilted as the flow of ideas is sacrificed to perfection.
What I have also seen is that my clever, articulate, intelligent little boy has gradually become less and less interested in school and has started to label himself as dumb and stupid - a vicious cycle.
As a wife I am married to a clever, articulate speaker who has a real gift for engaging the attention of his audience. He failed high school. He writes poetry. His spelling and grammar in written form are interesting to say the least. I am his editor in chief - I fix the mechanics so his message can be heard. His poems have won competitions or at the least been highly commended. He is also the Duty Manager for a a large company and is responsible for over 100 staff. One of his roles is hiring new staff. I asked him, “As an employer do you decide who to employ based on their spelling and written ability?” his reply, “No.”
So I asked what he looks for as an employer. He said that it helps if their application is legible, but that doesn’t necessarily count them out - computers take care of that issue. He said that it has more to do with the balance of their strengths and weaknesses when viewed against those of other applicants. Interestingly, they do group interviews, 4 at a time. They have to interview a fellow applicant and then stand up before the other applicants and 3 potential employers and “sell” their partner. They are then given a mystery item to “sell” - again orally. They look for employees who are confident, articulate, able to think quickly, a good communicator, and dress in a professional manner as is fitting with company standards. Why? Because they are interacting with the public all day long - foreign exchange.
So I agree that a future teacher needs to have a good command of written language. However, this is only one possible eventuality, not everyone will grow up to be a teacher or academic. I think I like what Arthus suggests - diversify the assessment strategies, allow choice. I’m sure my husband could present as multifaceted and carefully thought out analysis of “Romeo and Juliet” orally as I can in writing ( and I was an A student). His difficulties with writing do not preclude him from being able to think about, analyse and understand something he has read.
Kirstins last blog post..Encouraging Self Reflection and Thoughtful Decision Making.
Kirstin
28 Apr 08 at 9:02 am
Kirstin, you nailed my points so well I should just shut up from this point. Seriously, every single point you made gets it right, and leaves nothing out. Your examples are perfect too. Thanks for that.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 9:07 am
No. Just competent.
As far as your second comment, I honestly hope I am not misrepresenting your argument as a straw man when I sum it up like this: Emphasizing English is bad for English Learners, as it isn’t an international language.
Response: Over here in the States, English doesn’t have to be an international language to make it important. Yasser Arafat isn’t from an English-speaking country, so English fluency isn’t expected from him.
Because I’m teaching future U.S. citizens, grammatically correct is an essential focus. If I were at an international school, it wouldn’t matter as much. I’m not.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 9:09 am
Arthus,
You said to Sarah “If students fail the assessment, but are fine with day-to-day literacy, then what is the problem?”
The problem is that, unless they pass NYS Regents exams, our students won’t graduate, no matter how articulate they are. It may not be right, but it’s the reality we work with.
diane
dianes last blog post..Fly on Your Heavy Feet
diane
28 Apr 08 at 9:11 am
diane,
Oops! Missed that… I was actually referring to “higher” levels of assessment which she seemed to be referring to.
Of course teachers need to make sure students can pass within the system (no matter how bad the system is). Still, that doesn’t mean the aim should be for all students to get an A+ in writing (while ignoring other communication mediums)
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 9:15 am
Ben,
–your straw man is a straw man indeed. You replaced my “grammar” with “English,” in a bizarre substitution implying you equate effective communication with perfect grammar.
Research in English Language Acquisition (I’m an ESOL specialist besides being an English and history teacher) have shown that 5 to 7 years is required to reach academic English competence. Pushing that river only leads to an increase in what Chomsky and Krashen call the “affective filter” - the emotional-psychological negative feedback that inhibits learners from comfortable language practice because they’re too conscious of being “wrong” about what they’re far too early to get “right.”
Research has also shown that English is acquired through extensive reading on the Vygotskian Zone of Proximal Development for each individual. Check out Krashen’s The Power of Reading.
Research has also shown that direct instruction in grammar is no more effective, compared to control groups that simply spent that time reading texts in their instructional (Vygotskian) level, than reading. (I’ve got a summary of 100 years of research on direct grammar drill instruction v. reading at school. I’ll try to find the link tomorrow. I’m not at work today.)
I understand that US schools are shouldering teachers with impossible language proficiency expectations - and not giving most teachers adequate ESL specialist support - but does that justify using discredited direct instruction for the sake of a test?
As for my students - they’re almost all US college-bound.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 9:27 am
Arthus,
I understand what you’re saying, but consider this: we are waging a (polite) war of words here. All of us know how to use language well. Would you respect my opinion as much if it were poorly phrased or incoherent?
Clay,
Would the parents of your students be happy with anything less than “a good command of the English language” even though English is not their native tongue?
When you have children, would O.K. be good enough for them?
If we narrow students’ options too much or too soon by tagging some skills as less valuable than others, we leave them ill-equipped for a rapidly changing world. I would never have guessed that the typing I took in high school would translate into valuable keyboarding fluency when I got older. Who knows what will be needed in the future?
diane
dianes last blog post..Fly on Your Heavy Feet
diane
28 Apr 08 at 9:27 am
Arthus Erea
Yes, but what do you define as ‘day-to-day’? I am talking about a standard of writing that will inform health consumers in a way that they can read and understand, inform professionals and professional decision making and ultimately stand up in a court of law. Whilst there are many instances that a video dissertation will be a lot more effective than a written piece but there are still many professions and jobs where day-to-day ability will not suffice. The diagnostic tests we use are designed to support students identify their ‘weaknesses’ so that we can put things into place to help them build their writing and maths skills.
Sarah Stewarts last blog post..Story telling in Second Life
Sarah Stewart
28 Apr 08 at 9:29 am
I’ve been working in the field since computers, and I prefer printing out that which I’m about to edit. It’s still, by far, the simplest way to mark up a proposed article intuitively, rather than typing out explanations in Word’s horrible markup protocol.
Everything at my own blog is edited by computer, if only because I don’t have a printer at home, and because I don’t have to worry about professional, in-time-for-the-printer standards. I find most of my mistakes after I revisit what I’ve written later.
Actually, never. Remember: There are no working computers over here.
It isn’t. That’s the point.
Whatever negligible advantages computers have over the written word — which, by the way, assumes we have computers to begin with — they do not compensate for the intellectual laziness associated with “letting the spell-checker catch it.”
Why try to write it right the first time?
I predict that the government will do this by the time I retire from teaching. It hasn’t yet, and it won’t for some time.
I don’t teach in the future, or in a rich district. I teach where essential writing skills will separate those who pick the fruit and flip the burgers from those in the office and those who get their four-year degrees.
And, with respect to Kirstin, the sort of work she describes is not, for better or worse, where we aim our students. We aim them at college, because that’s what we’re told to do.
That’s another thing that’s not about to change any time soon.
Pure graphic designers versus successful writers? Might as well compare successful musicians versus successful pro athletes.
My point: Good writing skills help every those working toward the promotion in any white collar job. Good graphic design skills? Not so much.
I’ll concede that both are rare enough that either will help students find success in their own way, but bolstering students toward success in a single field is not the expectation of schools. Schools are expected to bolster students toward success in all fields, and all talents.
Disliking that expectation is your prerogative. Changing it, on the other hand, isn’t.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 9:38 am
Diane, I think we cross-posted. See my comment about the research on reading being the road to that “good command of the English language.”
I swear, after learning the basics by grade 4 (age 10?) or so, I got more valuable “writing instruction” from addictively reading comic books and science fiction in my spare time. That, and talking to my friends and their older siblings. Language is acquired naturally more than through instruction. It’s osmosis.
My sense of humor, my love of irony and language play, came more from my k-10 friendship with classmate Scott Ratchford than from any teacher I ever had.
Still - I do address individual error-patterns in my students’ writings, but normally in very short conferences during lunch or after school.
But so many of my grammatically perfect ESL students are snore material because their ideas and risks are also too “proper.” Give me a spirit in need of a proof-reader over a snorer in no need of one any time.
Tangent: Transcribe Ali in that interview, and you’ll only find a couple of erors in it. It would be an A paper for a certain type of assignment.
Point: He does have a good command of English.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 9:46 am
Fair enough
On equating:
Yes, I do. In an English-speaking country, and in the eye of the average American, your comments will be considered much more effective than Kirstin’s. For the sake of argument, and to continue to take the “prepare students for jobs and later life,” let’s make this a hypothetical professional outlet.
Few readers will have the patience, in any setting, to ponder every nuance and point of a long, drawn-out discussion. They’ll skim. On the surface-est level, your double-indented and grammatical — or, at least, nice-looking —- responses will, whether you like it or not, be considered better-argued.
Schools are required to prepare students for that professional outlet, whether or not students are headed for one.
I don’t dispute your research, though I would like to read the study.
To clarify: I don’t teach English Learners, just low-performing students. Mentioning English Learners was a reference I made, admittedly, out of ignorance. We have a lot of Hmong immigrants and their children over here, and I made the mistake of lumping together ELs and the kids I actually teach.
(See, for all the training they give us in the teacher training program, we don’t actually read any research. We just learn about scaffolding. That’s another rant.)
For the most part, I teach low-performing kids at a poor, inner-city school. For the most part, their grammar sucks. For the most part, local employers who pay salary rather than wage will judge them because of it.
Oh, and just to be certain: I still genuinely intend civility.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 9:55 am
Clay,
If only we could convince students of the value - the fun - of blogging and tweeting!
Our student bloggers: Lindsea, Kaelie, Stacy, Arthus, and the rest, all exemplify the creative, articulate student we’d love to have in our classes. Their Voices are strong and true and give me hope for our future.
diane
dianes last blog post..Fly on Your Heavy Feet
diane
28 Apr 08 at 9:56 am
I think Clay’s original point still stands, that we are labeling kids as failures because of the narrowness of current assessment practices. Any narrow assessment scheme that is used punitively will end up hurting someone.
The scary part is that even if you wanted to focus purely on teaching writing, right now authentic writing assessment is diminishing because it takes too much time. So even those of us working to open up assessment to more authentic methodologies are swimming upstream. I don’t think an argument about what percentages we ought to have of graphic, oral, or written communication is useful. Because ALL of these are being lost to standardized, high stakes assessment that supports NONE of these.
sylvia martinezs last blog post..6 degrees of professional development
sylvia martinez
28 Apr 08 at 9:56 am
I’m going to blog about this tomorrow but thought you all might be interested in the Pew Internet Survey on Teens and Writing.
Some interesting findings:
http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/PIP_Writing_Report_FINAL3.pdf
Carolyn Foote
28 Apr 08 at 10:12 am
Sylvia: Thanks for underlining that main point. It keeps getting lost.
Ben: No worries. Thanks for hanging in. And I will look for that research summary tomorrow. This is a good mix of viewpoints.
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 10:13 am
diane,
The fact that we all know how to use language well can be attributed to the face that this is.. well.. an English teacher’s blog. (Sorry Clay) I would actually respect your opinion if it was poorly phrased, because I practice doing that all day with many of my peers. However, incoherent arguments are less a flaw of writing and more a flaw of thinking.
—
Sarah,
You do have a good point: particularly since you know the exact career. Really, we should be giving all students a grounding in all methods of communication, and allowing them to chose/favor specific methods in line with their abilities as they get older.
The point of secondary and primary education shouldn’t be to prepare students for every possible career. It should be to prepare students to prepare themselves for the career of their choosing.
—
Ben,
Well then maybe Word is at fault. (Give GDOCS a try) But still, it’s a matter of personal preference. I have tried both, and it is easier for me to edit virtually. Don’t try to force a specific method that works for bleary-eyed adults upon all of us.
Even if we decide to regard the pen and the computer as “equal” tools, why should a specific tool be forced. Seriously.
You honestly think most students would bother to go back and fix those errors at all if done by hand? As for this being “intellectual laziness” that’s pure horse manure. It’s efficiency, not laziness. Don’t go all high and mighty, ivory tower upon the argument. If it gets the job done, then the tool works.
Do you use a microwave? That is culinary laziness. Do you still do it anyways? Hell ya.
Laziness is just another word for not doing pointless things.
Stop being so intellectually lazy. Get out a pen and paper to hand-write all of your comments before you type them back to me.
—
Clay, I couldn’t agree more. I have “mastered” the English language through informal interaction, reading (a lot), and writing (informally) online.
That is to say, I have learned far more outside the classroom about English than inside of it.
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 10:15 am
For the record - I edited Kirstin’s comment after Ben pointed out the lack of double line-breaks b/w paragraphs. I only added the breaks. Her comment is possibly my favorite one on this thread :), and deserves a close read.
(By the way, Ben, I agree with you on this one. But notice: that’s mere presentation - design, almost.)
Clay Burell
28 Apr 08 at 10:22 am
I’m not forcing either pen-and-paper or computer-based writing. As an educator, I’m charged with the responsibility of preparing my students for both venues, like it or not.
I’d argue that grammar is a linguistic design, but that would just twist your words beyond their intended meaning, wouldn’t it?
Grammar, in an English-speaking country and assuming and a native English speaker, is certainly a matter of presentation, too. In mainstream, non-EL classes, it deserves its heavy weight owing to the high expectations of writing.
Which brings us back on-topic.
To nonetheless digress again, as teachers, we are not charged with teaching students what they’re good at. On the whole, and in tandem, we’re charged with teaching students the foundations of everything, so that their future will be full of the widest possible opportunities.
This occurs, perhaps, at the expense of specialization, but occurs because we know that students cannot be expected to decide what they’ll do for the rest of their lives during high school. I know masters degree students who don’t know what they want to do with their lives.
Writing, and grammar, don’t have to be taught through S.A.D. As a future English teacher — long story — I plan to emphasize the journalistic styles. I expect that teaching that simple, direct language will be easier on myself and the students, while still teaching the purely essential skills associated with English classes.
But I still emphasize writing, and I still consider it the essential-est skill in English classes.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 10:35 am
In a world filled with written words, speech and graphics stand out.
image
audio
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 10:35 am
I agree with this essential point, as do the other dissenters. Perhaps it’s more credit to Clay that it gets lost — I don’t think commentors much disagree with him or anyone else about this, if only because it’s an idea that’s been pretty thoroughly hashed out in our “edublogosphere.”
(Don’t ask me why, but I hate that term.)
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 10:38 am
No you are not. Handwriting instruction is only a curriculum requirement in well.. kindergarten.
Seriously, the future isn’t going to see us using pencils and pens to craft anything. They’re just around for people who are more comfortable with them.
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 10:39 am
I envy your college and its lack of blue books.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 10:44 am
Benjamin,
I’m not in college. Actually, I’m an HS freshman.
The point isn’t that there shouldn’t be books. It is that by doing something besides the usual (writing), you can be more noticeable.
Arthus Ereas last blog post..The Why and How of Change
Arthus Erea
28 Apr 08 at 10:47 am
Hi Clay
appreciate the editing of my post. In this case the passion out weighed the punctuation, my message being more important to me then the mechanics.
With respect to Ben, my husband was born into a blue collar family. When I first met him he was unemployed. He has been a truck driver, cab driver, milker, box maker (in a factory production line) among other blue collar jobs. Where he is now is a position of power and influence in a multi million dollar, international company. What got him there? No university degree. No ivory tower. He was head hunted for this job by a previous employer because he was recognised as having excellent people skills, a calm and patient manner when dealing with others (something I’m afraid his wife needs to learn at times), creativty, organisational skills and the ability to persevere and learn from his mistakes.
I also come from a blue collar back ground. My mother says I educated myself out of it. She also says that I would have educated myself if locked away with a room full of books given the chance. What I concerns me though, as a mother, wife, teacher and human being is that labels have a habit of confining people. Sometimes the labels we place on others prevent us for seeing them as they truly are. We miss the potential because someone fits our stereotypes and/or doesn’t measure up within the bounds of our one size fits all assessment methods.
I don’t for one instant suggest that writing is not an important skill. I also agree that in our current society it holds a lot of weight. We may not be teaching in the future, but we are educating for it.
All that aside, I enjoy debating and I am open to the ideas of others. I don’t necessarily agree, but I do respect other people’s view points.
I would like to suggest though, that the example I gave of the interview process used in my husband’s company goes to show that employers may actually do things differently from how we’ve been led to believe.
I’m enjoying this exchange of viewpoints. Great discussion topic Clay.
Kirstins last blog post..Encouraging Self Reflection and Thoughtful Decision Making.
Kirstin
28 Apr 08 at 10:50 am
Does the 54th comment even matter?
Our provincial curriculum sees English Language as having 6 strands: Reading/Writing, Speaking/Listening and Viewing/Representing. While the theory behind this is quite progressive, the issue is that in practice, most teachers are so text bias that the other 4 strands take a back seat. Seeking balance here is important.
As well as balance, there’s an educational belief that all students should be proficient in all strands. I’m not sure I agree. As you so aptly point out, Ali’s gift was speaking. What role did writing play in his life? I”m not suggesting it played none but why does school insist on balance?
A third point is that too often we don’t recognize the context of communication. Text messaging is seen as a low level communication because of its lack of grammar and sophistication, when in fact students IM should be seen as alternate form of communication that is valid. I know you’ve touched on this numberous times in your posts re: f-words, etc.
Now you’re obliged to add the 55th comment and in danger of moving from “tight conversations” to “loose ones”.(see Clay Shirky…another great Clay!)
Dean Shareski
28 Apr 08 at 10:52 am
Benjamin, you mentioned,
“And, with respect to Kirstin, the sort of work she describes is not, for better or worse, where we aim our students. We aim them at college, because that’s what we’re told to do.”
I wonder when our schools will realize that college isn’t the be all and end all? I’ve heard many times that only 30% of high school kids go on to college (I don’t have a reference for this %), yet that is where so much of our focus is in the classroom. From your ‘for better or worse’ in the section I quoted, I’m guessing that you question this focus as well.
Arthus, you wrote about students choosing their career path in high school and taking courses to support that choice. I still think that it makes sense to keep your options open, though. How many young people really know what they want to do for a career? It took me until my mid-twenties to finally realize what I wanted to do. Luckily I was able to pursue my desired career path because I had kept my options open.
Claire
28 Apr 08 at 11:00 am
I don’t know anyone who would agree with this. E-books haven’t taken off yet for a reason.
Or get ignored for not participating in the current form of discourse. Academics don’t get lauded for ignoring scholarly conventions as they try to get published.
Blazing your own path isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, especially if you’re competing for competitive position.
With respect to Kirstin:
Not all men — and certainly not all students — are as talented and respectable as your husband, and a university degree these days counts for a lot, if not as much as it used to.
If I remember correctly, the unemployment rate for high school non-graduates is twice that for college graduates, and a similar disparity exists between their median incomes.
Benjamin Baxters last blog post..Unequivocally, the Best Week of Sentences Ever
Benjamin Baxter
28 Apr 08 at 11:00 am
Claire,
I agree most young people don’t know their career.
I didn’t mean specifically the career