“What is Schooliness?” – Overview and Open Thread

[Cross-post from my guest-blogger stint on Wes Fryer's Moving at the Speed of Creativity. Thanks, Wes!]

Colbert Poster

I Hate Schooliness. I Love Learning.

–this is my motto. It’s one of the reasons I wrote (in a post, “On Leaving Teaching to Become a Teacher,” with about 70 comments now),

I’m not sure how much longer I want to work for schools. I’d so much rather teach.

So what is “schooliness”?

I have no idea. But that’s not a problem: I’m a teacher. I’m quite comfortable speaking with confidence on subjects I know next to nothing about. That’s why I don’t believe in computers in my classroom. My students have me. I’m the teacher.

Fans of Stephen Colbert will note that “schooliness” riffs on Colbert’s “truthiness,” which won the Word of the Year awards from the American Dialect Society in 2005, and from Merriam-Webster in 2006.

Colbert, in a serious interview as himself, instead of as his Bill O’Reilly satire persona, had this to say about “truthiness”:

Truthiness is tearing apart our country, and I don’t mean the argument over who came up with the word…

It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that’s not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It’s certainty. People love the President because he’s certain of his choices as a leader, even if the facts that back him up don’t seem to exist. It’s the fact that he’s certain that is very appealing to a certain section of the country. I really feel a dichotomy in the American populace. What is important? What you want to be true, or what is true?…

Truthiness is ‘What I say is right, and [nothing] anyone else says could possibly be true.’ It’s not only that I feel it to be true, but that I feel it to be true. There’s not only an emotional quality, but there’s a selfish quality.

I’ve never tried to define “schooliness,” but so many people are quoting it as “Clay’s idea,” I feel it’s time to try – and to ask for your help in the Open Thread invitation at the end of this post.

The Birth of Schooliness

I first used the word “schooliness” in March 2007 – my third month of blogging – in one of a series of posts on “how to save blogging from teachers.” (I still worry about that danger, and still think-aloud about that challenge a year later.) I was envisioning a future in which all the edtech evangelists got what they wanted: schools full of teachers in every classroom using blogging with their students. But rather than seeing a utopia to celebrate, I saw a bleak dystopia: Blogging as “just another way to turn in homework.” Blogging, like thinking, creativity, and other joys, turned into an aversive horror by the forces of schooliness:

. . . . what reader will ever return to a blog that’s full of homework posts? If Stephen Colbert were here, he’d say such a blog smelled of this: “Schooliness.”

Like Colbert’s “truthiness,” “schooliness” stuck with me. It was a word without a dictionary definition that still seemed to identify something we all know, all too well.

Schooly Student Leadership

The next time I used the term was this past September. With a few other teachers around the world, I’ve started a Green Schools movement called Project Global Cooling. The project’s purpose is for student members to research waste-reduction measures, and their cost benefits for the school, and then present them for adoption in a formal proposal to the school administration – and to have, ideally, an Earth Day concert in cities around the world, student-promoted, on the same day, which will be filmed and uploaded to the Project Global Cooling website (it’s ugly right now, but it’s starting, finally, to grow legs – see my blog for future focus on this as it nears its April 19 climax).

One of the PGC students, a student council member, was ordered by the student council teacher-leaders to drop our club. It conflicted with the student council meeting times. That sent me into my second rage against the schooly in my post, “Student Council: Creating Tomorrow’s Followers (or, “Smells Like School Spirit”)“:

Me: “So what are you guys going to be planning in the Student Council that’s so important she’s forcing you to drop all other activities?”

Student: “The Haunted House for Halloween. And the next Student Assembly.”

Me: “The Haunted House….so, like, getting the pumpkins and doing some Halloween thing in the gym?”

Student: “Yeah.”

Me: “And the Student Assembly: what are you planning for that?”

Student: “Introducing the Sports teams. And raising school spirit.”

Me: “And how many people do you have meeting twice a week to plan a Haunted House and a 40-minute assembly to introduce the basketball players and give a few speeches and such?”

Student: “Seventeen.”

Me: “Seventeen?”

Student: “Yeah.”

Me: “Seventeen people meeting twice a week for the next 20 weeks to plan a haunted house in the gym, and an assembly to introduce sports teams? How long can it take to come up with a plan to introduce sports teams?”

Student: “I know.”

Me: “I hate school. Look at how trivial it makes you, even when you want to make a difference in the real world.”

Student: “I don’t have any choice. The Student Council teachers won’t let me out.”

Me: “And look how powerless you suddenly are. You’re 17. You’re a young adult. You know physics, calculus, and history far more than most of your teachers, but have zero power in school despite that. ‘They won’t let me.’ I hate school.”

* * *

So, your advice: I want to suggest he quit Student Council, since it’s clearly one very school-blindered, trivial waste of time for all these poor students seeking election in order to show they can handle power effectively – like adults do.

Another idea is to instead advise him to wage a bit of a rebellion inside the Student Council, by asking the very sensible question – “Is this the best we can do? Jack-o-lanterns and basketballs? Can we give the StuCo some teeth? Extend it into the real world? Isn’t it pathetically fay right now? Trivial? Irrelevant? Infantile?”

The sad thing is, it’s institutionalized. The Rat-Race for college admissions puts a high premium on silly bullets like holding a class office. College counselors, administrators, parents, students, teachers – the whole school culture – treat the Student Council like it’s an honorable thing. In reality, it limits the horizons of the 17 most motivated leaders from each grade level to the paltry world of the schoolhouse. It’s outrageously trivial and infantile.

I don’t know if it’s “consensus trance,” blind traditionalism, or winking condescension (”Let the kids play like they have power”), but it smells really bad to me.

Schooly Ethics

Schooliness raised its ugly head again when I considered the moral “offenses” schools choose to punish at school. Drive a gas-guzzler? Promote the bloody diamond trade with your flashy jewelry? Enjoy murder in video games or on your favorite movies? No worries. No punishment.

But use certain taboo vowel-consonant combinations, or look at the human form with certain taboo portions visible? We’ll throw the book at you, in our duty to teach you the difference between right and wrong. Schooly morality seems to have been held back since the mid-Victorian era. That was a fun post: “To Curse or Not to Curse: On Teaching the F-Bomb and Other Colorful Words.” Read it before you judge it. It’s about Shakespeare’s mastery of cursing, as an art form. Here’s a snippet:

Lear curses with style and grace, as befits a king. But Kent, his chief knight – Lear’s “Army Chief of Staff,” as it were – curses, as befits a career soldier, with much more salt and directness. Check out his classic “cussing out” of the slimy Oswald, servant of Goneril –

OSWALD:
What dost thou know me for?

KENT:
A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a
base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited,
hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a
lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson,
glass-gazing, super-serviceable finical rogue;
one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a
bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but
the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pander,
and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch: one whom I
will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest
the least syllable of they addition. (Act II, Sc. 2, ll. 14-24)

If your Elizabethan English is rusty, and you don’t hear the vulgarity and sexual insult sloshing in practically every line, download the free “Answers” Firefox addon, and click the unknown words while holding down “alt” on your Mac for an instant popup definition and more (PC users, you’re on your own – maybe “ctrl”?). Kent calls Oswald a pimp, son of a bitch, bastard, son of a whore, “wussy,” a suck-up, and more, and then says, in today’s language, “Deny one word, and I’ll kick your disgusting little donkey” (substitute the King James Bible word for donkey here).

It’s depressing, isn’t it, how the art of cursing has degenerated in our own modern age? Our four-letter words are so unimaginative and artless by comparison.

So if you were me, how would you guide students to translate these curses? Having Kent abuse Oswald by hissing,

You bad person, I’m going to kick your bottom.
You son of a bad woman, you sissy, you person born out of wedlock,
You big meanie, etc

just doesn’t strike me as a faithful literary adaptation. (It does strike me as schooliness, though. Some teachers, like Wilde’s classic Miss Prism in The Importance of Being Earnest, would give such a bowdlerizing an “A,” I’ve no doubt.)

Schooly Imagination and Curiosity

I’m battling with schooliness now, most distressingly, in the very people I thought would battle it with me: my high school seniors. It seems they are so unfamiliar with having their own ideas, and writing about them, that they simply cannot do it with any engagement. Their free-choice blogs are, overall, schooly imitations of authenticity. Pretending to have ideas they pretend to care about. Thank Goodness, there are exceptions. But the rule is so distressing, it’s led me to believe that, by high school, it’s too late to unlock the creativity and engagement Wes so often champions. Twelve years of schooliness seems to have beaten the desire to learn – the pleasure of learning – completely out of most seniors. It seems to me now that, if we’re going to feed fires for learning, we have to do it before they’re snuffed out. And that means, to be clear, focus on school reform in primary and middle years. (How to reform secondary school, so in the grips of the SAT and AP and College Admissions – not to mention high school teachers living out college professor fantasies – is beyond me.)

Here’s a snippet from, “From the Classroom Blogging Doldrums: What Would Teacher 2.0 Do?“:

The problem? Little vision, little connective writing.

It’s partly senioritis, I think. College applications, SAT’s, too many commitments to too many extra-curricular activities (got to have those bullets for the college application, even if they come at the cost of destroying both my learning and my GPA), too many week-long sports trips, too many AP classes that were chosen not for interest but again for careerist reasons.

It’s partly Korean culture: parents sending students to night and weekend schools for SAT prep, AP prep, tutors. Students confusing memorization skills with academic excellence, trained to “be instructed” rather than to “construct” meaning themselves. Having no time to be, reflect, explore, wonder (or having no energy, rather).

And it’s partly my own fault: all the macho posturing of Advanced Placement courses as “college-level, rigorous,” etc – and Wes Fryer’s etymolological connection, in Shanghai back in September, of “rigor” with “rigid” and “rigor mortis” echoes here – led me to buy in to what now seems a sadistic and pedagogically pathetic imperative to overload AP students with A Mountain Of Homework.

Schooly Critical Thinking: An Oxymoron

This is from, “Teaching Grammar on the Titanic: On Fear and Irrelevance in Education“:

So: the problem with me, as a teacher, is that I design units that don’t address anything important. I’ve been trained to think that my job is to stuff the headpieces of the next generation with such irrelevant things as the definition of litotes and onomatopoeia, to write cute little stories about nothing, to know Stratford-upon-Avon. To be able, paradoxically, to think critically about safe subjects. And above all, not to think about anything that might, god forbid, rankle the status quo. And let’s not even start to think about taking any sort of action.

Again, so: As soon as I stop thinking like a teacher, designing units derived from an institutional culture that defines me as a teacher, and subconsciously makes me far more traditional in my teaching than my progressively-posing ego likes to acknowledge….as soon as I re-define myself as a community leader – as that once-upon-a-time American thing called a citizen – instead, maybe the young adults of my community might have an opportunity to learn how to function in the world they’ll inherit from and manage for us all-too-soon.

Schooly (Anti-)Science

When Bulgaria is, per capita, more scientifically literate than America about biology, geology, and genetics – and when even science teachers are afraid of the “e-word” – little more needs to be said. I say it anyway, in this post that got 1,000 hits in 8 hours (a record for me): Truly Critical: On Science, Religion, and Goodness.

Schooly Writing LessonsWilde Action Figure

Under the influence of Oscar Wilde’s aphorisms and Ambrose Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary, and in order to battle evil with wit and thus smile a bit more in hell, I’ve decided to slowly compile twitter-like definitions of all things schooly. Here’s my first effort, from a post last week:

Schooly writing (noun): Assignments by teachers who don’t want to read them, to students who don’t want to write them; a perpetual and unnecessary misery upon which hinges the student’s future, and the teacher’s present, livelihood; an oxymoron.

Open Thread Invitation to Play: Your Definitions of Schooliness?

Readers of my blog will know about the Open Thread idea. It’s simple: A topic or question is proposed in an Open Thread post, and all readers are encouraged to write comments as long as they would like, to copy them to their own blogs if desired, and to converse with each other in the thread. It’s fun.

I’d like to do an Open Thread here: Questions:

1. List the topics that come to your mind when you think of “Schooliness.”

2. Write your own “Devil’s Definition” and give us all a wicked laugh. I’ll carry them over to Beyond School and add them to a page there.

We know what schooliness is. We teachers live it daily. Let’s have some fun with it.

(Other comments are fine too, of course.)

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  2. Open Thread 2: Your Dream Elective Class for a 1:1 High School?
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72 Responses to ““What is Schooliness?” – Overview and Open Thread”

  1. Clay Burell writes:

    Below are all comments I nicked from the original post on Wes’ blog ;-) Keep ‘em coming?

    1. On March 1st, 2008, diane said:

    Topics:
    authentic learning
    assessment
    lifelong learning
    engagement
    student voice

    Definition:
    schooliness – the process of leaching creativity from the soul of a student

    Comment:
    Like your new wedding hairdo in the poster.

    2. 2 On March 1st, 2008, Dean Shareski said:

    Wes sure gets his monies worth with you. I recall asking you to do the same for me but I never followed up.

    Anyway, what a complete description of your philosophy. It certainly helps to complete the puzzle of Mr. Burrel. This cuts to the heart of the “relevant, authentic and engaging” idea. I’m reminded of the work I’ve done this year on Project Based Learning. The one part that really struck home was how often we returned to the question, “will this matter in 20 years?”. Is this really important? So often we brush over this question for the sake of schooliness. Thanks for not letting go of this question.

    3. 3 On March 1st, 2008, Damian said:

    OK, I’ll give one a shot:

    Schooly Discipline: A philosophy that states that the best method of punishing our most disengaged learners – class cutters – is to remove them from class or school grounds for periods of 1-5 days at a time. This philosophy may be applied inconsistently by any one of multiple official disciplinarians at school.

    4. 4 On March 1st, 2008, cburell said:

    @Damian: Oh yes, yes, yes. Oscar and Ambrose are smiling from . . . . wherever they are.

    Thanks for playing and hope we see more :)

    5. 5 On March 2nd, 2008, Ken Pendergrass said:

    How about this-

    Schooly Music Lessons:using outdated instruments (i.e. auto harps) to teach outdated songs, typically by rote, with outdated accompaniments that sound nothing like music that is being performed by real musicians in the real world.
    and
    Schooly Music Concerts:unimaginative, teacher directed, music programs, that are mindless entertainment for the administration to brag about in parent newsletters and press releases.

    6. 6 On March 2nd, 2008, cburell said:

    Oh Ken, those are priceless. Reminds me of Lisa Simpson intro in the Simpsons opening credits.

    We really need to get some students to add some definitions here. :)

    7. 7 On March 2nd, 2008, cburell said:

    Here’s one:

    School (noun) a place that prepares the young for the world by separating them from it.

    8. 8 On March 2nd, 2008, diane said:

    Schooly library: a collection of outdated tomes arranged so that no student can locate them without the assistance of a highly trained professional who is usually unavailable

    Schooly standards: mandated tests measure a student’s ability to regurgitate facts. As expectations rise, passing grades are lowered so that the statistically impossible goal of having every student test “above average” is reached.

    9. 9 On March 2nd, 2008, Penelope Millar said:

    schooly gaze: Looking at every new technology, event or idea only in terms of how it can be used for the purposes of schooliness.

    10. 10 On March 2nd, 2008, diane said:

    Schooly Professional Development:
    You [staff] will attend, you will be passive
    We [administrators] will decide what will happen before, during, and after
    They [students] will not enter into the mix except incidentally

    11. 11 On March 2nd, 2008, diane said:

    Schooly day: as the doors open, the minds close.

    12. 12 On March 2nd, 2008, Lindsea said:

    Schooliness: A disease caused by twentieth century teachers, unnecessary rules, and bureaucracy. The mind feels like it’s been wrapped in a very hot, stuffy box. Side affects include lack of passion, mind numbing, and extreme functional fixedness.

    Cure: sudden jolts of inspiration applied directly to the frontal lobe in increasing amounts of power.

    13. 13 On March 2nd, 2008, mrsdurff said:

    1. List the topics that come to your mind when you think of ?Schooliness.?

    handwriting; arithmetic; any content area course done for the credit towards graduation not the knowledge; any course where there is a teacher on a stage, one right answer, and/or taught by the textbook; recess; lunchrooms; ISS.

    2. Write your own ?Devil?s Definition? and give us all a wicked laugh. I?ll carry them over to Beyond School and add them to a page there.

    Schooliness is all about what I am not. I refuse to be a teacher in the classroom, I am a learner among learners. I will be the lead learner, I will facilitate their growth, I will set up a course. But there will usually not be one right answer. Vocabulary and APA formats seem to have one right answer, but often there is more than one way around to a solution. Antischooliness is about a group of learners who gather together, online or offline, to learn about something. Schoolinesss is about walking in straight lines, bells, blocks or periods, attendance lists, & demerits. Sometimes I feel more like a prison guard than a learner. And I went to school for this? Oi veh!

    14. 14 On March 2nd, 2008, diane said:

    Schooliness is protecting students rather than arming them with knowledge

    Schooliness is isolation rather than integration

    15. 15 On March 2nd, 2008, pwoessner said:

    Two alternate definitions:

    Schooliness: A system born of the Agrarian Age, incessantly driven to meet the needs of the Industrial Age, and anxiously waiting for Pink’s Conceptual Age to fall off the Bestseller list.

    Schooliness: Preparing students for challenges and careers that don’t exist yet by teaching them about challenges and careers that don’t exist anymore.

    16. 16 On March 2nd, 2008, cburell said:

    @Pwoessner: You’ve got the writerly knack for this kind of thing. Such craft! I’m laughing as I type this!

    17. 17 On March 2nd, 2008, Terry Smith said:

    Schooliness – thank you Stephen Colbert – this is the evil spirit in which I pretend to believe, pretend to function in toward the end of year testing frenzy, checklist measurable items for, then in reality couch it all in projects, outings, and kid worldliness – follows what you can hear at teacher conferences: “A good project will have all 750 of our state objectives embedded.” Right. — Terry Smith

    18. 18 On March 2nd, 2008, James Sigler said:

    Schooly spelling
    Monday: Here are your spelling words for this week. Memorize them by Friday.
    Friday: Spelling test – Regurgitate onto paper the spelling words you memorized for this week and then forget them.

    (You convinced me about spelling tests, Wes)

    19. 19 On March 3rd, 2008, Clay Burell, Apple Distinguished Educator, Riffs On the Pitfalls of “Schooliness” « The World Is Your Campus said:

    […] Educator, Riffs On the Pitfalls of “Schooliness” Jump to Comments Found this great guest post on “schooliness” by Clay Burell, an Apple Distinguished Educator who now teaches in South Korea and blogs at […]

    20. 20 On March 3rd, 2008, Rodd Lucier said:

    Schooliness Anagrams
    & “Teachliness Feedback”

    Niches Solos…
    “Going your own way isn’t allowed, not even in Spanish!”

    School Sines!
    “You lose marks for spelling…”

    Colon Hisses…
    “We did metaphors last week, this week it’s similes”

    Chosen Soils…
    “Stand your ground in debate class, this is History!”

    Chess in Silo?
    “Where else can games be educational?”

    Clone his SOS!
    “Should we all cry for help?”

    Once his loss…
    “Now all a loss we all must suffer…”

    Inch loses so…
    “Metric rules the day…”

    Iconless “ohs”.
    “Graphics design is another class…”

    Sonic loss eh?
    “Did you hear what the Canadian said?”

    She sins. Cool!
    “Which teacher broke copyright?!”

    Con loses his…
    “You think it’s your right to read what you want!”

    Reply

  2. diane writes:

    Schooly creative writing is an oxymoron.

    diane’s last blog post..Guerrilla Teaching

    Reply

  3. Benjamin Baxter writes:

    School isn’t about the subject matter. School is about preparing students for life beyond school.

    As boring, hated, meaningless paperwork, schooly assignments have their place for a population that will grow up in cubicles.

    To respond to a previous commenter: Spelling tests are absolutely necessary, at least in the formative elementary grades. I have high school seniors on their way to graduation who can’t write a sentence without a spelling mistake every other word.

    There is no excuse for this.

    Schooliness can teach essential skills. It’s just that I’m talking about basic essential skills.

    Benjamin Baxter’s last blog post..Paralyzing Fatigue

    Reply

  4. Kaelie Curbxstomp writes:

    Philosophy means the love of knowledge, so therefore, I label you a philosopher. Is that okay? I refer to myself as a philosopher sometimes. I love knowledge. I hate having it shoved down my throat.
    All of this made me think about how much good “schooliness” actually does. It creates sheep or it creates rebels, as many things do, but it creates sheep or rebels that don’t know what to do. Mr. Baxter was talking about seniors who didn’t know how to do anything, and that’s common in my high school. The teachers restrict us and hold our hands through everything, and even I am guilty of being unable to do anything unless someone tells me what to do. School doesn’t prepare you for the outside world fully, but what can? It just prepares you for the constant interaction with people.
    I think I’m rambling. I apologize. But, I would like to say, people say that the change starts with us, the students. But how do we change things when we don’t matter? We’re statistics. Not people.

    Kaelie Curbxstomp’s last blog post..Mixed Tape

    Reply

  5. Adrienne Michetti writes:

    I’m not sure we need to take the school out of learning. I think maybe we need to re-define just *what* school is. Once we’ve done that properly, “schooliness” could mean all sorts of great things that actually do have to do with learning, curiosity, and growth. The problem is that right now, schools are not fostering this. So, naturally, what we define as being “schooly” is really, really sad, boring, repetitive, and drivelly.

    There are endless ways we can change what school is. For starters, why does it all have to be in a classroom with students full of anywhere between 20-40 students and one teacher. (You blog, Clay, has done wonders to show how this is possible.) Anyway, this is just one example. You get my drift. I think we really need to start re-defining what school is. Then what we now consider “schooliness” (see definitions above) will have no place in “new school”.

    Reply

  6. Kara Whittingham writes:

    ‘Schooliness’ numbs one’s connection with their inner voice and stifles their freedom to express who they are and to explore with confidence and openness what they think and what they believe. How else can one teacher get through the required curriculum, attempting to get 30 or so children to work to the same beat, when they are all so different? We see the result in the Milgram experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
    Kara

    Reply

  7. Bruce Smith writes:

    The sad thing is, it’s institutionalized. The Rat-Race for college admissions puts a high premium on silly bullets like holding a class office. College counselors, administrators, parents, students, teachers – the whole school culture…It’s outrageously trivial and infantile.

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head: it is a cultural/institutional problem, by which I mean that it’s extremely elusive. How do you can an entire institutional culture?

    It doesn’t take much reading of John Taylor Gatto to see that our schools aren’t, in fact, failing. Instead, they’re doing exactly what they were designed for over a century ago: to train the bulk of the populace to be followers, functionally literate and mostly obedient, while preparing a select few to run the asylum.

    Reply

  8. Bruce Smith writes:

    The sad thing is, it’s institutionalized. The Rat-Race for college admissions puts a high premium on silly bullets like holding a class office. College counselors, administrators, parents, students, teachers – the whole school culture…It’s outrageously trivial and infantile.

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head: it is a cultural/institutional problem, by which I mean that it’s extremely elusive. How do you change an entire institutional culture?

    It doesn’t take much reading of John Taylor Gatto to see that our schools aren’t, in fact, failing. Instead, they’re doing exactly what they were designed for over a century ago: to train the bulk of the populace to be followers, functionally literate and mostly obedient, while preparing a select few to run the asylum.

    Reply

  9. » Learned selfishness Sustainably Digital writes:

    [...] through writing this post I happened upon Clay Burell’s post attempting to define what he commonly terms as “schooliness.” In it, I see much of the [...]

  10. Clay Burell writes:

    @ALL: A huge apology for being too busy to individually answer – I swear I’m not making up the “I’m getting married” thing ;-) – but I have to say I love the playfulness, especially of such terse one-liners as Diane’s

    “School day: doors open, minds close.”

    And the Schooliness anagrams, Rodd, are a stroke of creative goodness.

    Where’s Scott Schwister when a twitku entry is needed?

    Reply

  11. kirsten writes:

    Schooliness is a great phrase that describes so much. Thanks!

    Reply

  12. Left Lane Ends » Blog Archive » ‘Schooliness’ writes:

    [...] Burell has a post well worth reading. I’m lovin’ his ‘take’ on [...]

  13. Think Like a Teacher » Musing on “Schooliness” writes:

    [...] even though I rant about not having time to read them. Today I ran across Clay Burell’s discussion of schooliness. I smile as I [...]

  14. Barbara writes:

    “School is about preparing students for life beyond school”. While this may be the intent, it rarely is the case.

    Reply

  15. Chris Watson writes:

    I’ve actually had a hard time while thinking about it since it could easily become a list of complaints about constraints in our respective school contexts. Here are some of my ideas:

    Schooliness is a system where grade negotiation is the main motivator for students to come conference and visit with teachers.

    Schooliness is the void between what teachers know about how to learn and what students have to guess about how they learn.

    Schooliness is the fear of evaluation when colleagues visit your classroom.

    Schooliness is believing that there are certain texts that all students need to read.

    Schooliness is teaching English as if all the students are on a literature professor career track.

    Schooliness is the assumption that becoming a doctor or a lawyer is the pinnacle of academic accomplishment, and the purpose of secondary education.

    Chris Watson’s last blog post..Depth vs. Breadth: English and Technology

    Reply

  16. Clay Burell writes:

    Thanks for this, Chris. You’ll note the Bierce and Wilde were my attempts to make this not a bitch session, but a celebration of that wonderful thing called writing sentences.

    Here’s one:

    Schooly success: The sacrifice of happiness to be better than everybody else, in order to sacrifice more happiness doing the same in college and life.

    Clay Burell’s last blog post..“What is Schooliness?” – Overview and Open Thread

    Reply

  17. Clay Burell writes:

    Mark Pullen (from We’s thread) wrote:

    At the end of every school year, I ask my third-grade students for reflections about our time together. I really request that the students be honest, and I usually get some great insights as to what worked or didn’t work for them that year. But one response from a while back really stuck with me — the student simply wrote: “This year felt more real.” SUCCESS!! I found it amazing that a third-grader could already verbalize that…

    Clay Burell’s last blog post..“What is Schooliness?” – Overview and Open Thread

    Reply

  18. The Notion of “Schooliness” « The Elementary Educator writes:

    [...] Burell, over at his always-provocative blog entitled “Beyond School,” recently posted this riff about the idea of what he calls “schooliness.”  Although difficult to define, [...]

  19. James writes:

    Holy Crapola BurellMan – That Rocked!

    My students are SOOOOOO reading this post tomorrow! I struggle with this DAILY! The amazing this is no matter where I go its all about ‘what do I need to know’ and not ‘what do I WANT to know’. The inherent desire to learn is rare. ‘Tis the reason it took the likes of Bacon, Galileo, Newton, Boyle, Franklin, Kepler etc so long to explain our universe. Yet we are still trying to convince the masses of the discoveries.
    You want relevance, try avian flue – influenza A H5N1. It has the potential to change civilization as we know it. It is evolution, genetics, immunology, structural biology, epidemiology, ecology, and more in one subject. Simply studying it would teach more science and be more relative than 50% of the science we teach. Ontario [and most] curricula are so caught up in memorizing facts that students, and teachers, miss the process. I cannot help but think this smells of schooliness. Me, a teacher, suggesting others what to learn but I truly hope I’m wrong about H5N1.

    Schooliness = curricula with no empowerment.

    Learn this – move along, nothing to see here!

    The question is: what do we replace it with? How do we train scientists without learning what has come before? Science is a building process. There is A LOT that we teach that isn’t relevant but a crapload remains.

    Been a long time Clay, love what you did with the place. Love you to check out scienceclass.ning.com. Very schooli, I know but I’m trying….

    Me all squeemish just thinking about posting that URL.

    Cioa
    James

    Reply

  20. Joe writes:

    You guys have it easy! At our school in order to combat low morale and stagnant pay they have introduced the Fish Philosphy. Which can be summed up as “Work hard, don’t complain, just be happy!” It is mocked by all the teachers, the Principal of course loves it!

    Reply

  21. Candace Hackett Shively writes:

    (rom my blog post)- BTW, the submit button on beyond school does not SHOW in IE6…Had to try Firefox. Is that a message about schooliness?

    Musing on Schooliness…

    I love RSS feeds, even though I rant about not having time to read them. Today I ran across Clay Burell’s discussion of schooliness. I smile as I muse.

    Is it like girliness? — a term meant to demean , but occasionally value at the same time?

    I can sense schooliness, even in myself. Like girliness, I try to avoid it yet do not want to push it away entirely. It has its place. On certain days for certain occasions, in certain moods, girliness is OK. Never my goal, just OK.

    Now, schooliness…?

    Schooliness actually cares whether the line is quiet in the hallway. Schooliness is made of the film and chicken wire they put inside the safety glass insert in my classroom door to prevent shattering (of ideas, customs, or quiet). It blocks the view of what is REALLY going on inside (inside heads, especially those who can entertain themselves while “education” goes on around them). Schooliness is the translator we apply to technology tools so they are “safe” and comply with AUPs. Schooliness is the substitute we LOVED to see as students because she was so much fun to fool. Schooliness is why they invented NCR paper, then changed it to Acrobat files you have to TYPE into. Schooliness is what prevented me from turning in what I really thought in most essays…until I trusted the anti-schooliness of the teacher. Schooliness is what my liberal arts degree ridiculed. Schooliness is what Congress would use to define Highly Qualified Teachers. Schooliness is the make-up that thinking human beings “touch up” as they leave the faculty room. Schooliness is what makes us wear a watch. Schooliness is what my brightest gifted students so aptly parodied as I chuckled and pretended not to hear. Schooliness is “May I have your attention please,” which should warn, “Turn the speaker off NOW!”

    I will enjoy thinking about schooliness for days …especially as I look out a non-school window, across my unfiltered computer, watching a lake with no buses or concrete in sight.

    There is a definite exhilaration to leaving schooliness behind.

    Candace Hackett Shively’s last blog post..Musing on ?Schooliness?

    Reply

  22. Bill Farren writes:

    Here’s my acrostic (laminated and printed in color, of course):

    Straight lines for margins and for walking
    Chew on this as long as it’s not an idea or gum
    Obedience = success
    Opine not
    Late to class, go the office and get a pass (see you in 10)
    SAT: your whole future in four digits or less

    Bill Farren’s last blog post..Brute-Force Hammer Time

    Reply

  23. Interesting Reading and Other Stuff to Make You Think « Musings from the Academy writes:

    [...] first item worth sharing is an interesting blog post by Clay Burrell entitled “What is Schooliness?” It is pretty lengthy but well worth the read. It will definitely get you questioning why you do [...]

  24. Bill Farren on Education for Well-Being: Random Acts of Deceleration | Beyond School writes:

    [...] better bargain involves removing the speed and stress caused by school by removing the schooliness. My observations point to schoolines as a prime source of stress, speed, and wasted learning [...]

  25. Eric Hoefler’s Journal » Blog Archive » Thinking in Texas writes:

    [...] about Clay Burell’s definition of “schooliness” and my own thoughts about creativity, motivation, student choice, and academic rigor … [...]

  26. blog of proximal development » Blog Archive » The Embedded Practitioner writes:

    [...] of grade eight students is given a place where they can engage as writers and move away from the “schooliness” of traditional class work. When I started, I really did not know what to expect. I had high hopes, [...]

  27. Open Thinking & Digital Pedagogy » Letting Go writes:

    [...] a number of years, and of course has a much longer philosophical history. Whether the approach is schooliness, deschooling or School 2.0, I do not think we are anywhere near in understanding what the future [...]

  28. Ideas and Thoughts from an EdTech » Blog Archive » The End of Religion and the End of School writes:

    [...] is quickly tossed aside as “it’s-not-going-to-happen-so-why-bother”. Clay’s unschooliness theme runs through his blog and I’ve stolen his quote many times to say I don’t like school [...]

  29. Sicheii Yazhi » Blog Archive » Thinking in Texas writes:

    [...] about Clay Burell’s definition of “schooliness” and my own thoughts about creativity, motivation, student choice, and academic rigor … [...]

  30. Joon writes:

    AP, SAT, or any standardized tests are “schooly.”
    They hinder learning because all students think about is scoring high on those tests, and forget the meaning of true learning.

    Reply

  31. Don’t Forget The Audience » Interacting With A Pro Baller writes:

    [...] just amazing that I am doing this for a class in school. It is just so unschooly. It’s more like [...]

  32. dy/dan » Blog Archive » You See The Problem, Right? writes:

    [...] spending his time learning other things, that’s fine – he’s dealing with school and schooliness. But give him a few months of no classes and he’ll start to get thirsty for the real learning [...]

  33. Truthiness @ School writes:

    [...] has the ring of truthiness? Teacher Clay Burrell on his Education For Well-Being Blog (ed4wb.org) coined the term schooliness to illuminate the absurdity of some of the stuff that goes on in schools.Here’s a [...]

  34. Pedagogy in Practice: Teaching Reading: A Reflection and a Way Forward writes:

    [...] by someone else. That’s ridiculous. Readers read what they want to.District required reading is schooly.Ever since reading Daniel Penac’s Better than Life, I’ve been struggling with the question “How do [...]

  35. Professional Development Meme | Do U C What I C writes:

    [...] I sometimes get this funny picture in my head of me sitting at my desk, with a tiny little Karl, Clay, David, (or whoever happens to have my head spinning today) on one shoulder, and a tiny little [...]

  36. WatsonCommon: Schooliness is: Open Thread writes:

    [...] awhile I’ve been reading Beyond School where Clay Burell uses the word schooliness in his description of his blog and personal learning mission. I’ve always felt like I knew exactly [...]

  37. Stress, Ambiguity, and Confusion are Good for You? « Chalkdust101 writes:

    [...] them of what to expect from this class. When we are trying to move students away from “schooliness” and do some in-country “unschooling” we are going to hit some rough spots, from [...]

  38. Edina Technology CoP: Revenge of the Right Brainers: Daniel Pink at the U of M writes:

    [...] for the school newspaper as an example. The more authentic learning the better. (Sounds like “schooliness”)As educators we should model and reward authenticity.He mentioned the best way to foster right [...]

  39. “So Off I Flew to Seek a Newer Land” - Notes Beyond Schoolteaching | Beyond School writes:

    [...] of any teeth for the Tech Coordinator position, and my general rejection of the tragicomedy of schooliness – to bring me to my decision not to sign that Tech Coordinator contract after [...]

  40. Networked Learner News » Blog Archive » The Embedded Practitioner writes:

    [...] of grade eight students is given a place where they can engage as writers and move away from the “schooliness” of traditional class work. When I started, I really did not know what to expect. I had high hopes, [...]

  41. The Embedded Practitioner | Networked Learner News writes:

    [...] of grade eight students is given a place where they can engage as writers and move away from the “schooliness” of traditional class work. When I started, I really did not know what to expect. I had high hopes, [...]

  42. Wrapping Up the “Web Legacies”: Reflection and New Direction | Beyond School writes:

    [...] That’s about it.  Though not part of the assignment, my own decision to select “artifacts” from early childhood to all later stages of my life made the assignment much richer.  At the end of the ten pieces I wrote over eight weeks (and I decided against publishing the last two here because they seemed sub-par), I’d sketched out a series of memoirs that formed a skeletal autobiography.  It’s not every class that affords an opportunity to write your entire life.  And this is why, I think, those papers didn’t suffer the fate of most of my college writings, which I’d never dream of inflicting upon general readers.  This assignment was different; it didn’t suffer from . . . what’s the word? . . . oh yes: schooliness. [...]

  43. On the Death of Genius in the Name of College | Beyond School writes:

    [...] genius; hello, schooliness.  Gone is the language of spirit, of nature, of self-tutelage now, and in its place is the lexicon [...]

  44. Science teacher: Beyond School writes:

    [...] I likely will again, but Clay Burrell has a post and a string of comments that gets to the heart of schooliness and education.He blogs like Sandy Koufax pitched, which means he’s going to throw quality stuff [...]

  45. Derek writes:

    Clay,

    I love your perspective. I am 35 years old and I still remember a teacher I had in high school. I’ll call him Mr. B.

    One day I showed up early for Biology class. I laid down on the counter at the back of the classroom and used my backpack like a pillow. When the bell rang, I fully expected to be told to go sit in my seat. But Mr. B surprised me. He asked if I was comfortable and I said yes. He then said one of the greatest statements any teacher has ever made to me. He told me, “I don’t care where you sit during this class, but you need to be able to answer any question I ask or you have to go back to your regular seat.” He frequently challenged me with tough questions, but I was able to prove I was paying attention even though I was not sitting at the desks, taking notes.
    Then, one day, he was not at work. He had called in sick for the first time in years. A sub was called in to handle the class. As she was calling role, she noticed me on laying down on the back counter and told me to go to my assigned seat. I immediately got up to move, but the rest of the class objected. “Look at the seating chart!” they argued. Sure enough, apparently Mr. B had drawn me in on the seating chart as laying down on the back counter. He made a big rectangle with a stick figure laying down on his seating chart and labeled it with my name. I never knew that he had done this, so it was a complete surprise to me.
    Needless to say, the sub didn’t like this so I ended up sitting in a regular chair for the entire period.
    But he also was the only teacher I’ve ever ditched another class to go to his class. He told us “I won’t turn you in for ditching class, but I also won’t provide an excuse for you. If you choose to ditch class, you’re on your own, but if you ditch to come here and maybe learn something, I’m not going to report it.” Thanks again, Mr. B.

    Reply

    Clay Burell Reply:

    Gosh that’s a beautiful (and beautifully told) story. If Mr. B is alive, you should share it with him.

    A million thanks, though, for sharing it with us.

    Reply

  46. Your page is now on StumbleUpon! writes:

    [...] Your page is on StumbleUpon [...]

  47. Mike writes:

    I’ve taken a basic skills college
    admission test three times now
    over 15 years from my late 30s to
    my early 50s and every time aced
    the english comprehension and
    composition component.

    Consistently I’ve demonstrated
    a skill for writing coherently
    and articulately. This isn’t to
    brag.

    In going to a community college
    it was recommended to me by
    writing tutors that I consider
    becoming a writing tutor because
    of what was perceived as my ability
    to pick apart and improve my own
    writing.

    So, I did, I submitted samples of
    my writing to the English instructor
    and was given an interview. She
    asked me to evaluate a short autobiographical piece from a student (anonymously of course).

    The piece was depressing. My first
    thought was “Has this person considered counseling?”. I never got
    beyond that to any meaningful critique.

    For that, I didn’t get the position.

    I am still inclined to think that
    concern, in that case for the individual rather than a dispassionate interpretation of
    the writing / the skills of the
    writer would’ve been far more important, far more valuable than
    an improved paper. What comes to
    mind is looking over the edge of
    the paper being critiqued and
    “seeing” the author.

    I would submit that this experience
    is an example of “schooliness”.

    I never did find out, from this
    instructor what a more appropriate
    response, from her perspective would’ve been. I have consistently
    found over the course of my education
    that there are students and instructors who excel at incorporating learning into the
    educational process and those who
    by comparison excel at education
    absent learning. I would define
    the difference as learning being
    developing a lifelong curiosity
    which extends beyond the classroom
    into real world, real time, lifelong
    application compared to education
    defined as regurgitation of well
    worn, widely accepted but never
    challenged textbook material.

    A simple example of the difference
    is the student who when asked to explain the use of a sextant
    for measuring height said he
    would go to the top of the building
    tie the sextant to a string, lower
    the sextant to the ground and
    measure the string.

    The text book “education” answer
    would’ve involved angle measurements
    and mathematical computations. This
    answer it seems to me is an example
    of learning. Both answers would
    be equally valid for the question
    asked, but the answer involving
    mathematics would probably be
    considered more accurate from the
    “educational” standpoint.

    I guess I’m a big fan of education
    which doesn’t stifle innovation and
    creativity in the process. Certainly
    it’s a worthwhile goal to have a
    solid foundation in the basics -
    to be able to communicate clearly and
    effectively, to be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Beyond that, how many different ways are there to get from point A to point B and to give credit for effective, and productive if not orthodox answers.

    I find that every day from those who
    apply unintended answers to my methods in software design (databases). Nothing is more
    lethal to orthodoxy than the simple
    question “why?” to which the inadequate response is almost always “because I said so”.

    Reply

    Clay Burell Reply:

    Mike, sorry for the belated response, but I just wanted to say I nodded yes as I read, and want to congratulate you on this quotable:

    I have consistently found over the course of my education that there are students and instructors who excel at incorporating learning into the educational process and those who by comparison excel at education absent learning.

    Reply

  48. The Day I Thought Gilgamesh Would Cost Me My Job | Beyond School writes:

    [...] a perfect miniature model of Freytag’s triangle to trot out for the lesson on plot.  And schooliness aside, it serves to start the conversation about how real literature finds grist for its alchemical [...]

  49. Beth writes:

    I love you. It is suffocating when teachers spend more time on making sure students show up on time, and turn homework in on time than what the purpose of what all this hubbub is about. I teach rhetoric (in addition to Western Lit – which the school calls World Lit, but I don’t really consider studying Italian sonnets Worldly). I’m trying to teach my students to THINK – make your own opinions, not your parents, or the schools, or your friends. THINK, UNDERSTAND, FORM AN OPINION. It is a powerful skill. And yet, by the time they get to me (freshman in college) they have been so beaten down all they want to do is tell me what I want to hear. AAARGH!

    The “schooliness” has gotten to them. When I do finally get them to consider why Hemingway NEVER uses the word abortion in “The Hills Are Like White Elephants” they look as if their brains will explode. When we discuss the anger, history and conflict in Sylvia Plath’s “Daddy” they are amazed that such a thing is allowed in school. I’m thinking, “why is this shocking?” – Don’t we ALL have “parent issues”?

    They are so wrapped up in “what is next”, or “when is that due?” And I don’t care. I’m not here to shuffle paper, I’m here to stretch your mind. To make you critical thinkers. I’m here to make you consider the importance, problems, and beauty of the world around you.

    Alas, you have communicated all of this so much better than me. I will slink back into my corner of the world.

    Beths last blog post..And We’re Off!

    Reply

    Clay Burell Reply:

    Well Beth, I just want to thank you for slinking out to write that comment. It was a (sad) hoot to read.

    Reply

  50. xkcd • View topic - I Hate Schooliness. I Love Learning. writes:

    [...] Fledermen64 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:44 pm UTC This website, http://beyond-school.org/2008/03/04/what-is-schooliness-overview-and-open-thread/, I find basically contains a well written layout of what I feel is wrong with the education system [...]

  51. jeff writes:

    ‘schooliness’ so aptly describes so much about how children are raised today. the worst thing is, it’s not just in schools. i quit boy scouts because of schooliness, although i didn’t have a word for it at the time. i wanted to join Heinlein’s Farmer in the Sky style boy scouts, but no such thing exists. boy scouts are student councils with ‘no girls allowed’ signs out front. that’s just one example, it is now impossible to grow up without constant exposure to schooliness.

    believe me, i’ve tried.

    Reply

    Clay Burell Reply:

    Funny angle. I dropped out of Cub Scouts in elementary school.

    Maybe you should try your hand at creating the kind of scout reality you can’t find?

    Thanks for the comment, Jeff.

    Reply

  52. Ntikiviki writes:

    TBH: I do not think schooliness is necessarily a bad thing. students need discipline students need to learn to comply to a certain point and students need to know certain basic stuff. I do however think that things like English (or native language) and creative writing and art and similar fuzzy subjects should be removed from the curriculum. All you learn there is how to comply with the teacher’s wishes and that your own opinion does not count. I dream of one time homeschooling my children and excluding the arts completely as this is a far too personal thing.

    Reply

    Clay Burell Reply:

    Hm. I think English is only “fuzzy” because of the schooly confusion of phonetics and “reading comprehension” with critical thinking and reason. And I think those two things are more important than math or science or any other subject schools teach.

    And I don’t trust most parents to have an inkling of what it is (remember, before they had children, average parents were probably, by definition even, average students).

    But since teachers are afraid of angering parents, they don’t teach real critical thinking anyway. So maybe you’re right.

    And BTW, I’m really uncomfortable with the argument that schools are necessary to ‘teach children to comply.’ I’d rather teach children to question whether they should comply. They’re future voters and citizens, after all. Democracy needs people who can say no to authority.

    Reply

    Ntikiviki Reply:

    Please do not infer things, I never said, phonetics and reading comprehension are the ‘hardest’ things in the curriculum of English. But as soon as it comes to interpretation, and to grading these interpretations, you are in more fog than you could possibly have outside in one foggy year.

    I am reminded of that joke about mathematicians needing pencils, paper and wastebaskets and philosophers not even needing wastebaskets. It kinda applies to English or native language or art classes as well. People can and will argue for different viewpoints very eloquently even though they might be as far away from each other as Frankfurt and Funafuti. Are both right? none? What else will a student learn from that than a lack of interest in objective truths and with said teachers and grading that objective truth is whatever is decided by the teacher? I thus see English and art even worse for democracy than emphasizing discipline.

    Well, I doubt that critical thinking can be taught at all. The teachers, which emphasized critical thinking were normally the kind of teachers who marked down critical thinking when it did not comply with their opinion. All I saw critical thinking do was creating a more subtle prison for thoughts.

    BTW: Discipline is unrelated to critical thinking. We did have teachers, who accepted differing viewpoints but managed to keep the class quiet.

    Reply

  53. Help and Information for New Bloggers | Electronics and ICT at Manangatang P12 College writes:

    [...] Clay says that he has been “Waging war on schooliness since 2006″ and adds “I hate schooliness. I love learning.” http://beyond-school.org/2008/03/04/what-is-schooliness-overview-and-open-thread/ [...]

  54. Happy Birthday, Beyond School - and Rest in Peace? | Beyond School writes:

    [...] Gilgamesh posts than all the rest of my 600 posts combined. It made me want to stop writing about school(iness) altogether, and just write readings of the heights of human [...]

  55. The Teacher’s Dilemma-Content Delivery vs Understanding « Less Chalk More Talk writes:

    [...] http://beyond-school.org/2008/03/04/what-is-schooliness-overview-and-open-thread/ [...]

  56. Student Voices about technology and creating the future | ISTE’s NECC09 Blog writes:

    [...] simply reinforce the traditional, teacher-directed model of “schooly” learning. (To quote a term from Clay Burrell.) Instead, let’s embrace 1:1 learning and provide students with the digital learning tools [...]

  57. Actively Passive? « Less Chalk More Talk writes:

    [...] Clay Burell has refered to ’schooliness’ in his articles concerning the inhibiting effects of applying traditional teaching strategies to new teaching technologies and in many ways I feel that ill conceived fieldwork trips can have similarly counter productive effects. [...]

  58. Journeys: Oh, the Stuff You Would Learn! writes:

    [...] passing tests typically involves more fact recall than creative thought. Diffendoofer represents unschooliness at its finest.Perhaps if Dr. Seuss were still alive, he would be serving as a spokesperson for [...]

  59. xkcd • View topic - I Hate Schooliness. I Love Learning. writes:

    [...] Fledermen64 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:44 pm UTC This website, http://beyond-school.org/2008/03/04/what-is-schooliness-overview-and-open-thread/, I find basically contains a well written layout of what I feel is wrong with the education system [...]

  60. MECU (not a teacher) writes:

    Schooliness: Merely stuffing students’ heads full of information and formula to be memorized by rote and regurgitated upon demand.

    Teaching Idealism: Teaching students *how* to think and solve problems using whatever tools are available.

    The Neil Bohr barometer story sums this up:
    http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/barometer.asp

    Reply

  61. “You Suck at Photoshop”: Paragon of Creative Project-Based Learning at Beyond School writes:

    [...] So I’m wrestling, as usual, with the ways this wonderfully simple approach to creative learning will be complicated by the forces of schooliness: [...]

  62. My Australia Keynote Speech: A Serious Farce, in One Thousand Acts at Beyond School writes:

    [...] before and the unveiling, in the “fourth movement,” of a climactic new chapter in the War on Schooliness. It was nothing short of mystical, in the best combination of inspiration and gut-laughs. It was [...]

  63. Does Schooliness Helps Us Become Learners? | EdTechTrek writes:

    [...] but for me it was much more about redefining “schooly” or “schooliness”. Clay Burell has a great post (here, too) on his conceptualization of “schooliness” and writes, Twelve years of [...]

  64. nils peterson writes:

    I think about schooliness from a university perspective, where I think we are at risk of being replaced by more cost effective, more stimulating and more relevant learning methods.

    My last blog post is http://www.nilspeterson.com/2010/03/21/reimagining-both-learning-learning-institutions/

    Reply

  65. When the choir does the preaching « The Thinkabouter writes:

    [...] behind schooliness and pretend I did know while feverishly “up-skilling” myself behind the scenes, [...]

  66. Kathryn writes:

    Schooliness is what I’ve been doing the past 17 years & what I will be doing the next 6 years.

    Now that I’ve given up “learning” art (as in getting grades for them), I’m having a hard time taking in this freedom (& deciding what major I want to be now).

    Enjoyed blissful freedom while it lasted – the first 3 years of my life.

    haha hello Mr. B – randomly came across this post!

    Reply

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