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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread: On the Value of Your Own High School Learning</title>
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	<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/</link>
	<description>More learning. Less schooliness.</description>
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		<title>By: TonyB</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-7801</link>
		<dc:creator>TonyB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-7801</guid>
		<description>Hi Everyone, 
I have a carpet cleaning business in Houston,TX that was doing pretty good until the economy went bad, and with it my clientele. I have a website for the business but I dont 
know what I have to do the get it to show up in a search. Right now it&#039;s somewhere in the  yahoo/google netherworld (LOL).

Is there someone on here that can give me some insight or know of anyone that coud give me insight on how I can get my local website on the front 
page of a Yahoo or Google search to increase my business without it costing me 5 or 10k $$$? If so please share with me.

 I thank you and my hungry over-eating children thank you.

thanks,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Everyone,<br />
I have a carpet cleaning business in Houston,TX that was doing pretty good until the economy went bad, and with it my clientele. I have a website for the business but I dont<br />
know what I have to do the get it to show up in a search. Right now it&#8217;s somewhere in the  yahoo/google netherworld (LOL).</p>
<p>Is there someone on here that can give me some insight or know of anyone that coud give me insight on how I can get my local website on the front<br />
page of a Yahoo or Google search to increase my business without it costing me 5 or 10k $$$? If so please share with me.</p>
<p> I thank you and my hungry over-eating children thank you.</p>
<p>thanks,</p>
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		<title>By: What did YOU learn in HS? - Blue Ridge High School Class of 1984</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2243</link>
		<dc:creator>What did YOU learn in HS? - Blue Ridge High School Class of 1984</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2243</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] What did YOU learn in HS?       Interesting thread about what you REALLY learned in HS. Find it here. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] What did YOU learn in HS?       Interesting thread about what you REALLY learned in HS. Find it here. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Dangerously Irrelevant: The Square Pegs</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2231</link>
		<dc:creator>Dangerously Irrelevant: The Square Pegs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2231</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] last post for Dr. McLeod, I thought it would be helpful and intriguing for all of us if we left an open thread (a la Beyond School&#039;s popular one).&#160; Open threads seems to me to be chock full of good advice, insight, and some remarkable [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] last post for Dr. McLeod, I thought it would be helpful and intriguing for all of us if we left an open thread (a la Beyond School&#8217;s popular one).&nbsp; Open threads seems to me to be chock full of good advice, insight, and some remarkable [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: cup beans</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2180</link>
		<dc:creator>cup beans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2180</guid>
		<description>I used to day dream in school so after reading your post I tried to check what I remembered from high school and was surprised to realize that I remember more than I thought, not in all areas but still. 
High school is remembered mainly as a period of being bored most of the time except for occasional days that seemed more alive in my memories than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to day dream in school so after reading your post I tried to check what I remembered from high school and was surprised to realize that I remember more than I thought, not in all areas but still.<br />
High school is remembered mainly as a period of being bored most of the time except for occasional days that seemed more alive in my memories than others.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaelie Curbxstomp</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2145</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaelie Curbxstomp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2145</guid>
		<description>I learn almost nothing in my classes at school.  I learn about how to deal with other people--which I will do for the rest of my life--but I come to school 8 hours a day, and only take small disciplines with me, and maybe a fact or two that will disappear from my mind forever.  I hate wasting my life on a lot of this stuff, because you &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; that it&#039;s not going to do anything for you in later life.  It may help you deal with stress, but I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s worth it.  Although, I do have to say--having said high school may be pointless in some ways--I don&#039;t condone dropping out.

Kaelie Curbxstomp

&lt;em&gt;Kaelie Curbxstomp&#039;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&#039;http://curbxstomp.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/intimidation-at-its-best/&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Intimidation At Its Best&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learn almost nothing in my classes at school.  I learn about how to deal with other people&#8211;which I will do for the rest of my life&#8211;but I come to school 8 hours a day, and only take small disciplines with me, and maybe a fact or two that will disappear from my mind forever.  I hate wasting my life on a lot of this stuff, because you <i>know</i> that it&#8217;s not going to do anything for you in later life.  It may help you deal with stress, but I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s worth it.  Although, I do have to say&#8211;having said high school may be pointless in some ways&#8211;I don&#8217;t condone dropping out.</p>
<p>Kaelie Curbxstomp</p>
<p><em>Kaelie Curbxstomp&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://curbxstomp.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/intimidation-at-its-best/' rel="nofollow">Intimidation At Its Best</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Clay Burell</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2133</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Burell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2133</guid>
		<description>Carmen,

Nobody is saying &quot;get rid of teachers&quot; here.  Move them from the front of the classroom, though - and possibly, just possibly, move students from a teacher-controlled or system-prescribed curriculum in order to allow students to learn when and in what directions they are ready to learn - that&#039;s a thumbnail sketch of what I mean by &quot;student-centered.&quot;

To me, the argument is most interesting when it asks, &quot;At what point does a student have the basic skills necessary to then move into more individualized pursuits?&quot;

That&#039;s why I asked about the value of &lt;i&gt;high school&lt;/i&gt; years.  For me, they didn&#039;t justify the investment of time.  I didn&#039;t become interested in anything academic until I hit my 20s, my beloved Shakespeare, Homer, and Everything Else included.  I suspect any development in literacy in my adolescence had very, very little to do with those four dubious years of classroom attendance.  Worse, I suspect I would have read and written - and thus developed - more had I not been forced to spend so many hours and days and years in high school.

As for the side-trip into 21st century networking, creation, collaboration, and so forth - pioneer territory indeed, no denials.  

But for the millionth time, networked learning is something I&#039;m teaching only in an elective class. I can&#039;t see ways to do that right now with academic stuff like my AP Literature classes.

And for the millionth and first, it&#039;s really something to be understood by experiencing it.  I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve met a good number of people in your academic life through more traditional means - the conferences, maybe emails, and the old list-servs of the 90s.  

But the explosive shifts in thinking, dialoging, socializing, and collaborating via blogging, social bookmarking, social networking, and digital telecommunication (Skype), podcasting, on and on - those blow all previous realms of possibility out of the water.

Socially, intellectually, creatively, &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; professionally, it&#039;s a world and a skillset the next generation will need to understand.  It&#039;s the new &quot;book&quot; for a post-Gutenberg age.  

Gotta go now. Thanks for the push ;)

&lt;em&gt;Clay Burell&#039;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&#039;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/cburell/~3/233981192/&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Podcast: With Dean Shareski on _Natural_ Global Collaboration and Networked Learning&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carmen,</p>
<p>Nobody is saying &#8220;get rid of teachers&#8221; here.  Move them from the front of the classroom, though &#8211; and possibly, just possibly, move students from a teacher-controlled or system-prescribed curriculum in order to allow students to learn when and in what directions they are ready to learn &#8211; that&#8217;s a thumbnail sketch of what I mean by &#8220;student-centered.&#8221;</p>
<p>To me, the argument is most interesting when it asks, &#8220;At what point does a student have the basic skills necessary to then move into more individualized pursuits?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I asked about the value of <i>high school</i> years.  For me, they didn&#8217;t justify the investment of time.  I didn&#8217;t become interested in anything academic until I hit my 20s, my beloved Shakespeare, Homer, and Everything Else included.  I suspect any development in literacy in my adolescence had very, very little to do with those four dubious years of classroom attendance.  Worse, I suspect I would have read and written &#8211; and thus developed &#8211; more had I not been forced to spend so many hours and days and years in high school.</p>
<p>As for the side-trip into 21st century networking, creation, collaboration, and so forth &#8211; pioneer territory indeed, no denials.  </p>
<p>But for the millionth time, networked learning is something I&#8217;m teaching only in an elective class. I can&#8217;t see ways to do that right now with academic stuff like my AP Literature classes.</p>
<p>And for the millionth and first, it&#8217;s really something to be understood by experiencing it.  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve met a good number of people in your academic life through more traditional means &#8211; the conferences, maybe emails, and the old list-servs of the 90s.  </p>
<p>But the explosive shifts in thinking, dialoging, socializing, and collaborating via blogging, social bookmarking, social networking, and digital telecommunication (Skype), podcasting, on and on &#8211; those blow all previous realms of possibility out of the water.</p>
<p>Socially, intellectually, creatively, <i>and</i> professionally, it&#8217;s a world and a skillset the next generation will need to understand.  It&#8217;s the new &#8220;book&#8221; for a post-Gutenberg age.  </p>
<p>Gotta go now. Thanks for the push <img src='http://beyond-school.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><em>Clay Burell&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/cburell/~3/233981192/' rel="nofollow">Podcast: With Dean Shareski on _Natural_ Global Collaboration and Networked Learning</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Carmen</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/comment-page-1/#comment-2130</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/2008/02/04/open-thread-on-the-value-of-your-own-high-school-learning/#comment-2130</guid>
		<description>It isn’t just because the student-centering of pedagogy is today’s zeitgeist that I’m skeptical about its benefits. I’m a teacher of the last wave, too, a graduate of a fairly rigorous West-Coast teacher-training program, and have my own set of experiences and empirical evidence to guide me. It is all too evident from 14-years of college teaching in the humanities that my finest first-year students are those that come from private high schools that haven’t (yet) thrown in the towel on teachers or equated scholasticism with pedantry. As for standardized testing, does anybody really believe it represents the only measure for intelligence? Who is it that said, &quot;What, after all, is intelligence, but kindness?&quot;? 

But you seemed to be asking what people got out of school with a view to debunking the validity of formal schooling, and the devil’s advocate in me wants to ask: If this global networking model which you&#039;re enthusiastic about helps lead to greater intelligence, happiness, creativity, self-reliance, independence, citizenship, and freedom (any more so, say, than any other cultural enrichment project run out of the schools), if it has some tangible benefits in other words, does this mean we need to throw out all our old models, even while it is clear if not from the feedback you’ve gotten then from a longer history of scholastics that the relationship between the docile pupil and judicious preceptor can in fact be a very positive one? The irony and I daresay hypocrisy in all this is that none of the proponents of student-centered pedagogy truly plan or even want to get rid of the teacher.

I have an emotional attachment to things artisanal and to a ‘renaissance’ conception of education, and if I became worried reading Penelope’s comments on the lack of use-value for cursive writing, it is because one could argue, along similar lines, indeed along lines recently pursued by the upper administration in my university, that Latin or Physics are no longer ‘viable’ because their practical implications aren’t self-evident in the modern, economically-driven era. Students would rather enroll in business, international relations, pre-med or law, thus these programs aren’t worth their weight in instructional staff and should be done away with. 

It seems like I’m digressing, but I see a connection between this utilitarian line of thinking and the (rather more utopian than utilitarian) idea that children (ok, young adults) possess the judgment, savoir-faire, and wisdom to educate themselves (not sans guidance, I think you&#039;re saying?). If the savvy manipulation of modern technology in the name of global citizenship is the ends we seek in an education, I might be willing to concede the point. But this “reach out and touch someone” learning is most emphatically not what I want to see at the center of curricula for my children. If it has become abundantly apparent (I’m speaking of my own family now) that we must to one degree or another home school our children to fill in the colossal gaps in the Stateside public educational system, by no means am I willing to forego the teacher on the one side and hand the reigns over to the World Wide Web on the other. Admiration, mimesis, humility: all these are good things, and they come out of the teacher-centered dynamic and move the student to great works.

Wouldn’t you say the Forbes author engages in the very rhetoric he claims to decry in the anti-American discourses and attitudes of some Europeans? Too shrill to be trustworthy.

Clay, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t intuitively understand all you’re experimenting with or exactly advocating for, but I trust your diligence and integrity will lead to interesting and I don’t doubt valuable results. Regards, Carmen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It isn’t just because the student-centering of pedagogy is today’s zeitgeist that I’m skeptical about its benefits. I’m a teacher of the last wave, too, a graduate of a fairly rigorous West-Coast teacher-training program, and have my own set of experiences and empirical evidence to guide me. It is all too evident from 14-years of college teaching in the humanities that my finest first-year students are those that come from private high schools that haven’t (yet) thrown in the towel on teachers or equated scholasticism with pedantry. As for standardized testing, does anybody really believe it represents the only measure for intelligence? Who is it that said, &#8220;What, after all, is intelligence, but kindness?&#8221;? </p>
<p>But you seemed to be asking what people got out of school with a view to debunking the validity of formal schooling, and the devil’s advocate in me wants to ask: If this global networking model which you&#8217;re enthusiastic about helps lead to greater intelligence, happiness, creativity, self-reliance, independence, citizenship, and freedom (any more so, say, than any other cultural enrichment project run out of the schools), if it has some tangible benefits in other words, does this mean we need to throw out all our old models, even while it is clear if not from the feedback you’ve gotten then from a longer history of scholastics that the relationship between the docile pupil and judicious preceptor can in fact be a very positive one? The irony and I daresay hypocrisy in all this is that none of the proponents of student-centered pedagogy truly plan or even want to get rid of the teacher.</p>
<p>I have an emotional attachment to things artisanal and to a ‘renaissance’ conception of education, and if I became worried reading Penelope’s comments on the lack of use-value for cursive writing, it is because one could argue, along similar lines, indeed along lines recently pursued by the upper administration in my university, that Latin or Physics are no longer ‘viable’ because their practical implications aren’t self-evident in the modern, economically-driven era. Students would rather enroll in business, international relations, pre-med or law, thus these programs aren’t worth their weight in instructional staff and should be done away with. </p>
<p>It seems like I’m digressing, but I see a connection between this utilitarian line of thinking and the (rather more utopian than utilitarian) idea that children (ok, young adults) possess the judgment, savoir-faire, and wisdom to educate themselves (not sans guidance, I think you&#8217;re saying?). If the savvy manipulation of modern technology in the name of global citizenship is the ends we seek in an education, I might be willing to concede the point. But this “reach out and touch someone” learning is most emphatically not what I want to see at the center of curricula for my children. If it has become abundantly apparent (I’m speaking of my own family now) that we must to one degree or another home school our children to fill in the colossal gaps in the Stateside public educational system, by no means am I willing to forego the teacher on the one side and hand the reigns over to the World Wide Web on the other. Admiration, mimesis, humility: all these are good things, and they come out of the teacher-centered dynamic and move the student to great works.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t you say the Forbes author engages in the very rhetoric he claims to decry in the anti-American discourses and attitudes of some Europeans? Too shrill to be trustworthy.</p>
<p>Clay, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t intuitively understand all you’re experimenting with or exactly advocating for, but I trust your diligence and integrity will lead to interesting and I don’t doubt valuable results. Regards, Carmen</p>
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