Comments on: Creators vs. Exam-Takers: A Student Blog Debate, and Prayer for the Death of the SAT http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/ More education. Less schooliness. Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:43:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: prayer of a student teacher: Web Search Results from Answers.com http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-7144 prayer of a student teacher: Web Search Results from Answers.com Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:28:02 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-7144 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] but it is student intimidating. ...answers.yahoo.com/question/ index?qid=20081012184736AAsmUBKCreators vs. Exam-Takers: A Student Blog Debate, and Prayer for ...Exam-Takers: A Student Blog Debate, and Prayer for the Death of the SAT .... Literature, History, [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] but it is student intimidating. …answers.yahoo.com/question/ index?qid=20081012184736AAsmUBKCreators vs. Exam-Takers: A Student Blog Debate, and Prayer for …Exam-Takers: A Student Blog Debate, and Prayer for the Death of the SAT …. Literature, History, [...]

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By: Clay Burell http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-973 Clay Burell Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:52:01 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-973 Ah, but Tim, we're talking <i>Milton's</i> Satan - the first "freedom-fighter" in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition! True to pattern though, he does become a dictator himself after gaining power. On earth as it is in Heaven - and Hell? ;-) Ah, but Tim, we’re talking Milton’s Satan - the first “freedom-fighter” in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition!

True to pattern though, he does become a dictator himself after gaining power. On earth as it is in Heaven - and Hell?

;-)

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By: Tim Goree http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-965 Tim Goree Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:33:26 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-965 Wow, Diane, I'm not sure how I feel about leading people to a conclusion that compares what we hope for kids to achieve to the way that Satan thinks, but hey, you got my attention! As far as SATs are concerned, I think the movement going on right now that makes SATs more irrelevant is the realization that the majority of students these days don't go (and don't need to go) to a four year university at all. At least, they don't need to go right out of high school. There's a major movement to getting college credit in alternative ways after one is already in the workforce and long out of high school. People that "go back" don't have to take SATs to get placed at all... Wow, Diane, I’m not sure how I feel about leading people to a conclusion that compares what we hope for kids to achieve to the way that Satan thinks, but hey, you got my attention!

As far as SATs are concerned, I think the movement going on right now that makes SATs more irrelevant is the realization that the majority of students these days don’t go (and don’t need to go) to a four year university at all. At least, they don’t need to go right out of high school. There’s a major movement to getting college credit in alternative ways after one is already in the workforce and long out of high school. People that “go back” don’t have to take SATs to get placed at all…

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By: Clay Burell http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-964 Clay Burell Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:17:32 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-964 Thanks, both. It was a poorly-expressed, rushed post, so to clarify: The Forbes article, if the argument is valid, pointed to the <i>irrelevancy</i> of knowing many of the "building blocks." The alleged fact that academic research rarely yields successes, and that successful research discoveries come more often from "creative" insights from those who see beyond the rules and established body of knowledge in whatever discipline - that's what interested me. Carolyn, I read your post a few days ago, and it's depressing news for America. And Diane, I sort of broke it down in a reply to a student's post that what disturbs me is the "facts and analysis today, creativity always tomorrow" approach in most of our classrooms and assessments. Speaking of which: time to grade :( Thanks, both. It was a poorly-expressed, rushed post, so to clarify:

The Forbes article, if the argument is valid, pointed to the irrelevancy of knowing many of the “building blocks.” The alleged fact that academic research rarely yields successes, and that successful research discoveries come more often from “creative” insights from those who see beyond the rules and established body of knowledge in whatever discipline - that’s what interested me.

Carolyn, I read your post a few days ago, and it’s depressing news for America.

And Diane, I sort of broke it down in a reply to a student’s post that what disturbs me is the “facts and analysis today, creativity always tomorrow” approach in most of our classrooms and assessments.

Speaking of which: time to grade :(

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By: diane http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-955 diane Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:22:56 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-955 I agree with Daniel that students need a structure, a frame of reference, some "building [Lego] blocks" of facts. Even rockets to unknown galaxies need launching pads! How to assess and what to assess are very different questions. The "four slide" requirement of the Chicago Graduate School of Business http://tinyurl.com/yr2g8f would be one method of gauging creative thinking skills but would not necessary predict an applicant's ability to be successful in courses the required for a degree. To use an imperfect "Paradise Lost" analogy: Adam and Eve might have been able to pass a standardized test, but Satan would shine in an alternative creative assessment! I agree with Daniel that students need a structure, a frame of reference, some “building [Lego] blocks” of facts. Even rockets to unknown galaxies need launching pads!

How to assess and what to assess are very different questions. The “four slide” requirement of the Chicago Graduate School of Business
http://tinyurl.com/yr2g8f
would be one method of gauging creative thinking skills but would not necessary predict an applicant’s ability to be successful in courses the required for a degree.

To use an imperfect “Paradise Lost” analogy: Adam and Eve might have been able to pass a standardized test, but Satan would shine in an alternative creative assessment!

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By: Carolyn Foote http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-953 Carolyn Foote Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:37:01 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-953 I think I meant bode well ;) not portent...sorry! I think I meant bode well ;) not portent…sorry!

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By: Carolyn Foote http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/comment-page-1/#comment-952 Carolyn Foote Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:25:55 +0000 http://beyond-school.org/2007/11/24/creators-vs-exam-takers-a-student-blog-debate-and-prayer-for-the-death-of-the-sat/#comment-952 Clay, Some schools in the California system have pushed away from the SAT as a college entry exam, and that has put some pressure on....but... then again, as I posted the other day, a consortium of large American colleges has decide to do some self-reporting of student success, and one of the measures they will be using is a test designed by the SAT folks. (or a few other ones, like ACT). So, that doesn't portent well for it "fading" away. Frankly, one thing I've found interesting for our students--many colleges now only accept scores for a certain number of AP tests. So even when students cram and do well on them for two years of high school, some colleges only accept one or two, or only ones with scores of 5. So....there seems to be this whole misconception about it that is fostered by the program itself? I'm sure students who have taken AP classes perform better in college or are somewhat more prepared from a content standpoint, but if the focus is just on the college credits, that will depend ENTIRELY on what college they choose to attend. Clay,

Some schools in the California system have pushed away from the SAT as a college entry exam, and that has put some pressure on….but…

then again, as I posted the other day, a consortium of large American colleges has decide to do some self-reporting of student success, and one of the measures they will be using is a test designed by the SAT folks. (or a few other ones, like ACT).

So, that doesn’t portent well for it “fading” away.

Frankly, one thing I’ve found interesting for our students–many colleges now only accept scores for a certain number of AP tests. So even when students cram and do well on them for two years of high school, some colleges only accept one or two, or only ones with scores of 5.

So….there seems to be this whole misconception about it that is fostered by the program itself?

I’m sure students who have taken AP classes perform better in college or are somewhat more prepared from a content standpoint, but if the focus is just on the college credits, that will depend ENTIRELY on what college they choose to attend.

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