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	<title>Comments on: Blessings from Hell: the View from the Student&#8217;s Desk*</title>
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	<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/</link>
	<description>A field headquarters in the War on Schooliness.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bruce Smith</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/#comment-2427</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=300#comment-2427</guid>
		<description>Clay,

Granted, I just discovered your blog, and this post is several months old, but I wonder why you'd continue to put yourself through this kind of frustration. Don't just think outside the box -- get yourself a new damn box already!  :-)

&#60;&#62;

Emancipate them by putting them in an environment that trusts them while expecting them to conduct themselves responsibly. Let them learn what they want to learn; let them learn by being part of a community of equals (no token stabs at democracy, but the real thing). Let them set up and take classes, or learn on their own, or set up small groups -- whatever works for them. 

The ones who want the skills of an AP course can still get that. Those who want to write will have ample opportunity to do that. 

System won't let you do such radical things? Then find/create a new system, I say. It's high time we remembered that systems are supposed to serve people, and not vice versa. 

Besides, people who don't want to learn can't be taught. Wasn't it Plato who said that no learning of any value could come from coercion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay,</p>
<p>Granted, I just discovered your blog, and this post is several months old, but I wonder why you&#8217;d continue to put yourself through this kind of frustration. Don&#8217;t just think outside the box &#8212; get yourself a new damn box already!  <img src='http://beyond-school.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&lt;&gt;</p>
<p>Emancipate them by putting them in an environment that trusts them while expecting them to conduct themselves responsibly. Let them learn what they want to learn; let them learn by being part of a community of equals (no token stabs at democracy, but the real thing). Let them set up and take classes, or learn on their own, or set up small groups &#8212; whatever works for them. </p>
<p>The ones who want the skills of an AP course can still get that. Those who want to write will have ample opportunity to do that. </p>
<p>System won&#8217;t let you do such radical things? Then find/create a new system, I say. It&#8217;s high time we remembered that systems are supposed to serve people, and not vice versa. </p>
<p>Besides, people who don&#8217;t want to learn can&#8217;t be taught. Wasn&#8217;t it Plato who said that no learning of any value could come from coercion?</p>
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		<title>By: Clay Burell</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/#comment-371</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Burell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=300#comment-371</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the buck-up, Tom :) The amazing (maybe not) thing is this woman literally wrote the book for AP Lit. The reflection did help (though I should apologize to readers for enduring it). &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for "teacher-free" learning, that was in reference to me, not my students. BUT - I attack the words "teacher" and "student" in my class, and urge "learners" instead; I have a year-long forum for open criticisms of our class on Moodle, with a "dummy" username and password to guarantee anonymity, in hopes that will encourage them to tell me what changes they want.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How to "emancipate" students in School is a tough one. a) What does that mean? b) To what extent? c) How?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Self-directed learning through choice of poets, novelists, playwrights, etc - this is one approach I want to attempt for AP Lit this year. It doesn't seem easy, and I hope others will pitch in any suggestions.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It seems a step toward reversing those who "don't want to be taught at all."&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But "be taught" is maybe a word trick when you use it?  To be avoided by letting them decide what they want to _learn_, within the scope and restrictions of the AP program's external exam?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I'll order that Illich, and already have the Freire - thanks for the nudges :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the buck-up, Tom <img src='http://beyond-school.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> The amazing (maybe not) thing is this woman literally wrote the book for AP Lit. The reflection did help (though I should apologize to readers for enduring it). </p>
<p>As for &#8220;teacher-free&#8221; learning, that was in reference to me, not my students. BUT - I attack the words &#8220;teacher&#8221; and &#8220;student&#8221; in my class, and urge &#8220;learners&#8221; instead; I have a year-long forum for open criticisms of our class on Moodle, with a &#8220;dummy&#8221; username and password to guarantee anonymity, in hopes that will encourage them to tell me what changes they want.</p>
<p>How to &#8220;emancipate&#8221; students in School is a tough one. a) What does that mean? b) To what extent? c) How?</p>
<p>Self-directed learning through choice of poets, novelists, playwrights, etc - this is one approach I want to attempt for AP Lit this year. It doesn&#8217;t seem easy, and I hope others will pitch in any suggestions.</p>
<p>It seems a step toward reversing those who &#8220;don&#8217;t want to be taught at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>But &#8220;be taught&#8221; is maybe a word trick when you use it?  To be avoided by letting them decide what they want to _learn_, within the scope and restrictions of the AP program&#8217;s external exam?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll order that Illich, and already have the Freire - thanks for the nudges <img src='http://beyond-school.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/#comment-370</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=300#comment-370</guid>
		<description>Clay,&lt;br/&gt;Most of us have similar stories of abusive pedagogy (some of my worst were in my education courses!) You'll get through this, and the reflection will help. At the very least, the suffering will make you more sensitive of the suffering of others. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So when you say you're ready to get back to "teacher free" learning, does that mean you're going to "emancipate" your students? Or at least ask them how they want to be taught? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;... and if they don't want to be &lt;i&gt;taught&lt;/i&gt; at all, then what?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Maybe when you're ready for a break from Illich (but not until you've read &lt;i&gt;Tools for Conviviality&lt;/i&gt;), you can move on to Freire!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay,<br />Most of us have similar stories of abusive pedagogy (some of my worst were in my education courses!) You&#8217;ll get through this, and the reflection will help. At the very least, the suffering will make you more sensitive of the suffering of others. </p>
<p>So when you say you&#8217;re ready to get back to &#8220;teacher free&#8221; learning, does that mean you&#8217;re going to &#8220;emancipate&#8221; your students? Or at least ask them how they want to be taught? </p>
<p>&#8230; and if they don&#8217;t want to be <i>taught</i> at all, then what?</p>
<p>Maybe when you&#8217;re ready for a break from Illich (but not until you&#8217;ve read <i>Tools for Conviviality</i>), you can move on to Freire!</p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=300#comment-367</guid>
		<description>Since you like my quotes, here's another one for you:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;“For good teaching rests neither in accumulating a shelfful of knowledge nor in developing a repertoire of skills. In the end, good teaching lies in a willingness to attend and care for what happens in our students, ourselves, and the space between us. Good teaching is a certain kind of stance, I think. It is a stance of receptivity, of attunement, of listening.”&lt;br/&gt; -Laurent A. Daloz</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you like my quotes, here&#8217;s another one for you:</p>
<p>“For good teaching rests neither in accumulating a shelfful of knowledge nor in developing a repertoire of skills. In the end, good teaching lies in a willingness to attend and care for what happens in our students, ourselves, and the space between us. Good teaching is a certain kind of stance, I think. It is a stance of receptivity, of attunement, of listening.”<br /> -Laurent A. Daloz</p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://beyond-school.org/2007/07/25/blessings-from-hell-the-view-from-the-students-desk/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyond-school.org/?p=300#comment-366</guid>
		<description>Clay,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I went to a podcasting workshop today that was "brilliant" in all senses of the word: good information, nicely paced, excellent student/teacher interaction. This is how I want to be taught; this is how I want to teach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay,</p>
<p>I went to a podcasting workshop today that was &#8220;brilliant&#8221; in all senses of the word: good information, nicely paced, excellent student/teacher interaction. This is how I want to be taught; this is how I want to teach.</p>
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